General Bill Slims Truck / Caravan CMP

[Keith Brooker]

Has any one any more info / photos off General Bill Slims HQ truck, it was built by Indian Station workshops at Dimapur, OC Col Wallace Station workshops. Did it survive the war ?. Original photos from my collection.
Keith

[Keith Brooker]

This is the Officers bus [ cooks tours ] that went with Gen Bill Slims HQ truck. Has 999 number. First 2 photos are from my collection.
Keith

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Keith Brooker

Has any one any more info / photos off General Bill Slims HQ truck, it was built by Indian Station workshops at Dimapur, OC Col Wallace Station workshops. Did it survive the war ?

Keith,

Thanks for sharing, always interesting to see these local Indian adaptations.

The chassis is a 3-ton Ford F60H with 6x4 drive line - the rearmost axle is non-driven.

Did it survive? No idea, have not seen any reports of such a vehicle in a museum in India.

Regards,
Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

It seems that there were at least four F.60H Demands for India:

S/M 2140
S/M 2141
S/M 2253
S/M 2254

As you know the Canadian Government (DND) cancelled F.60H orders so that there were no # 13 Cab chassis ordered and none were ordered by the British either so that makes it an Indian-only model!

[lynx42]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

It seems that there were at least four F.60H Demands for India:

S/M 2140
S/M 2141
S/M 2253
S/M 2254

As you know the Canadian Government (DND) cancelled F.60H orders so that there were no # 13 Cab chassis ordered and none were ordered by the British either so that makes it an Indian-only model!

David , I don't understand your statement that the #13 F60H chassis were cancelled and that it is therefore an "Indian-only model". Do you mean that no cab #13 F60H chassis were supplied outside of India?

Whilst not common, there are a few here in Australia. I know of 3.

Regards Rick.

[Keith Brooker]

Photo of the cab, i have put it in B&W. Army No /|\ 145151
Keith

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Rick is of course correct! There were some ordered by the Ministry of Supply for Australia but I cannot see any known Demand numbers. The '1942' deliveries file does not mention any so I can only surmise that the orders had been cancelled by then. The earliest known C.60X Demand for Australia was S/M 2510 so this seems to be the first-known replacement order. 60 were delivered by end 1942.

A little history:

On 14 August 1941, Ford F.60H 6 x 4 production to Canadian orders ended. A heavier truck was required and London was notified by telegram on 25 August. The Master General of the Ordnance sent a Telegram on 25 August 1941 from Ottawa to London stating that the situation with regard to the 6 x 4 chassis had been thoroughly reviewed. 1,058 chassis had been ordered to cover home and overseas requirements but in view of the results to date it had been decided to cancel 55 and divert 362 to India leaving a balance of 641 available of which approximately 534 had been or were to be shipped to the U.K. The ‘Summary of Establishments and Requirements of Vehicles in the U.K.’ as at Midnight 24 July 1941 showed total establishment 6 x 4 of 754. Some of these establishments were still provisional and no purchases had been made against them however using those figures as a basis it was suggested that London allocate the 524 to best advantage and purchase other requirements from the R.A.O.C.. If required Ottawa could ship most of the 117 remaining in Canada. It was believed that the 6 x 4 chassis was suitable for stores, workshop, S.B.G. special bodies, machinery except R.E., X-Ray, and bus if G.V.W. was scaled down to a maximum of 16,000 lbs. It was unsuitable for breakdown, derrick, F.B.E. machinery, R.E. photo, mechanical printing, recorders, plotters, pontoon, pontoon trestle, half pontoon bay.

The F.60H does not appear to have been acquired for U.K. forces, and thus are not mentioned in the 1944 Census Number listing. However, they were evidently used in the Middle East, and thus would have acquired Mid-East allocated numbers. In addition, Australia and India received numbers to Ministry of Supply contracts from at least 1942, and there is evidence that Australia purchased quantities direct from Canada, and were very successful as wreckers. Although the Canadian lorries did not continue in production, overseas orders maintained production long enough for the # 13 Cab to be used, with the forward-sloping front screen. In total 4,123 F60H lorries were produced. This included a quantity of open-cabbed versions, with either the # 42 or # 43 Cabs depending on whether #12 or #13 closed Cabs were used at the time.

Thus I should have said 'India and Australia-only' and appreciate being corrected.

[warren brown]

Very interesting Rick - are there any F60H goers in Australia?

[lynx42]

Originally Posted by warren brown

Very interesting Rick - are there any F60H goers in Australia?

Goers Warren? I don't know. None of the three I have come across over many, many years was any more than a restoration project. One has a badly bent chassis and none the original body.
Regards Rick.

[Mike Cecil]

David,

Interested in your comment that 'The earliest known C.60X Demand for Australia was S/M 2510 so this seems to be the first-known replacement order. 60 were delivered by end 1942.'.

Information from Australian records shows that the C60X orders were not to replace vehicles, but for a specific project (and I'll paste from my C60X article):

'The Australian Army first placed an order for 120 of these chassis in CKD form during 1942 under Contract Demand (CD) E5298, as well as a single pilot model chassis. These were for use as the basis for the Australian heavy armoured car. The pilot model chassis was despatched from Canada in June 1942 to enable work on the hull for the armoured car to proceed while awaiting the despatch of the 120 chassis much later in the year. The correspondence and the original order refer to these 121 chassis as being for ‘armoured cars’, as do the weekly reports from General Motors-Holdens...'

and

'The Army order for 120 chassis was still pending in January 1943, with the first 48 chassis said to be en route from Canada. These were landed in Australia during February 1943. While the bulk of these were allocated to the Army order for breakdown trucks, the first allocation was actually to the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), who received chassis numbers 8660M00001 to 8660M00011. The first breakdown trucks for the Army commenced at chassis number 8660M000013, and continued through to chassis number 8660M000120. The remainder of the Army’s order for 120 vehicles was made up of chassis in the 8660M68000 series. In total, the Army received 120 ‘Trucks Breakdown (Aust) No.4’, apparently delivered in small batches of 12 vehicles, except for two batches of 23 and 24 vehicles respectively, and the single pilot model vehicle. They were mostly delivered during 1943, and remained in service with Army workshop units during the post-war period. The last examples were disposed of in the mid-1960s.'

I am yet to locate any reference to F60H trucks in any configuration within the Australian Army's vehicle registers. I don't doubt Rick's post that some existed in Australia (he's found 3 over the years), but I'm yet to locate anything official relating to their importation and use (but still looking!!)

Mike C

[cliff]

Hi Mike,

where can we get a copy of your article on the C60X?

Thanks

[Mike Cecil]

Sure, Cliff: There is a version on Keefy's OldCMP site:

http://www.oldcmp.net/C60x_cecil.html#Anchor-3800

Enjoy!

Mike C

[cliff]

Thanks Mike I appreciate it.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks for all the input. I am going to see if I can publish a repeat of my Vintage Roadscene magazine text here for you, relating to 6-wheel CMPs.

The chassis numbers that have been quoted save for the pilot lorry appear to be 1943 MODELS and may have been assembled as late as 1944. I know of just one Aussie C60X:

3866070143M ENGINE # 270 45,859 [MELBOURNE-ASSEMBLED] SM-PE-211-16 SEPTEMBER 11 1945

So was PE-211-16 the last contract then?

I have been mulling over the possibility that there were no direct Australian orders for F60H lorries and that any that ended up in Aussieland were ex-Middle East deliveries. I have no evidence yet of any Census Numbers or Demands/Contracts for F60H chassis for the British forces but I have a list of Ford Demands that are not assigned to any known models. It would require a check of index cards at Bovington Tank Museum, if such is possible these days, to check unless someone with a F60H can find a number on a plate in the cab and/or a parts list with any British Demand numbers on it. May I ask if there is any record of F60H lorries in the AWM census books please?

[Mike Cecil]

Hi David,

The chassis numbers of the first 120 vehicles are a unique Australian number, stamped in Australia with the 'M' after the '8660' and before ther chassis sequence number, hence they commence at '1' and progress to '120'. They were dispatched in late 1942 or early 1943 and arrived progressively1943, so were no doubt manufactured in 1942. The model year numeral was not included in the chassis number, possibly a further indicator that they were stamped in Australia at the point of assembly.

I think the later deliveries have the 'M' at the end of the chassis number, ie the one you quote is 866070143M, and were Canadian assigned numbers to which was added the 'M' after arrival (at point of assembly). Can't check that chassis number just now, but can do so next week when I get back the office (I don't have MS Access on this computer)

The original pilot chassis issued to Australia in June 1942 has the chassis number 28660-10766, with no Australian assembly site indicator letter. It was actually delivered direct and assembled at the DAFVP workshop in Salmon Street, Port Melbourne, rather than the GMH assembly plant, and hence retained its Canadian number without the added 'M'.

I don't recognise the 'PE' prefix in relation to Australian contract demands, which were pretty much all 'CD-EXXXX', and don't know how it relates to the supply contracts, so can't help you there. But I will check the chassis number (see above).

Having scoured the Aust veh registers for many years, I'm yet to locate an F60H, but I'll be happy if someone has found an ARN on one that can direct me to a particular page to examine!! With over 100,000 vehicles, it's easy to overlook or miss details.

Mike C

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

That's what I love about MLU..you learn something more earch day!

Now, I have checked my database and I have details of CMPs and I have records of a few 'PE-' contracts...I wonder if it stands for Procurement Executive or similar? Perhaps a listing might be appropriate for further discussion?

The second point is that it seems that Melbourne always used the 'M' plant code but other plants sometimes did not apply their 'B', 'S' and 'P' codes...note I have it seems not yet seen an 'A' for Adelaide plant code yet! During the war and then post-war, it seems that Holden plants had their own interpretations about how vehicle serial numbers should be stamped, and also whether a plant code was to be stamped and where...after the model number of after the sequential number.

Thirdly, there is a variance it seems in Holden serial numbers! CKD chassis seem to have a Holden-allocated number that started with # 1; CKD chassis with a Canadian serial and plant code, and imported chassis with serial number and no plant code! I must post Aussie CMP details sometime for further discussion....

[Mike Cecil]

David,

'Adelaide' had two plants, neither of which are called the 'Adelaide' plant in the GMH War Record history, but Birkenhead and Beverley, with only the Birkenhead Plant involved in car and truck chassis assembly. Maybe that's why there are no 'A'-marked chassis? The Perth and Brisbane Plants were known by those names (and stamped 'P' and 'B') but the 'Sydney' plant where car and truck chassis were assembled was actually known as 'Pagewood Plant', but as we know, was marked with an 'S'. So, seemingly some inconsistencies.

REF the C60X chassis number you quoted earlier, 3866070143M. This was assembled as an RAAF 900 gallon refueller and delivered to the RAAF with the last batch in late 1945. I suspect it was one of several that were subsequently transferred to the Royal Australian Navy, but am yet to cross-check the engine numbers in an effort to confirm this.

REF 'PE': yes, interested to see a list/partial list to see if I can make any cross reference to what I have on contract data. As you say, we may all learn from it. Do you have any shipping information regarding deliveries from Canada to overseas?

Regards

Mike C

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

GM (Australia) Pty Ltd's first plant was in Marrickville, near Sydney. They then went on to have five plants and by 1928 were clerarly using letters for plant codes.

As regards Birkenhead, here's a little bit of history that I have:

In 1926, Holdens’ were called upon to body Morris’s Cowley models as well as the 12HP Austin. It appears that Holden had visited Morris when in the UK, as well as Vauxhalls: Holdens’ bodied Vauxhall chassis from at least 1925, after General Motors had acquired the English company. Holdens’ reacted to the constant improvements in designs by acquiring Whitlingstowe Engineering Limited located in Beverley, an adjoining Adelaide suburb to Woodville. This company acquisition enabled Holdens’ to produce drop-forged, heat-treated or machined components. Further upgrading of Woodville which totalled £460,000 with the new company purchase cost, saw the installation of heavy presses for cowl and door panel stamping and an increase of floor space at Woodville to 23 acres to allow production of up to 300 bodies per day. A further result was the removal of work and the Head Office from the original Adelaide city building to Woodville

I wonder if Beverley became a body plant in addition to Woodville?

The original GM (A) Plant addresses were (opened 1926-7)
City Road, Melbourne, Victoria
Carrington Rd, Marrickville, Sydney, New South Wales..opened October 1926
Wickham Street, Valley, Brisbane, Queensland
Corner Rann & Birkenhead Streets, Birkenhead, Adelaide, South Australia
Corner Buckland & Victoria Streets, Cottelsoe Beach, Perth, Western Australia

Holden’s Motor Body Builders Ltd., also had their own interstate operations (assembly and repairs) - Woodville, South Australia was their main body building plant and their assembly and repair plants were located at:

Cnr Ferrars and Munro Streets, South Melbourne
Anderson Street, Valley, Brisbane
Dowling Street (off William Street), Sydney
In 1922 Holden’s Limited also had a similar plant at King William Street, Adelaide.

GM (A) and Holdens as you know to form General Motors-Holden's Pty Ltd and their five plants were officially 'Adelaide'. 'Brisbane'. 'Melbourne' and 'Sydney'. Plus the Woodville body plant.

I stand corrected on any history though!

I may well have data on shipments overseas as at 1945...I shall have a look when I can!

I have data on 'Shops' C60X supplies from GM of Canada though (to 31 March 1944):
1942 418
1943 809
1944 316

Total shipments to Australia: 25,352

Total F60H production: 4,123
Total C60X production: 2,710


I'll have a look when I can then for you!