T-16 Questions, some silly

[herr-pear]

I've never seen a T-16 (Or a UC, for that matter) in the flesh but am very interested. Can someone explain how the T-16 steering controls work? I assume two of the levers control the diff and the other two are steering brakes. Is that right? and which are which?

Also, can the T-16 do pivot turns? Without throwing a track?

Lastly (And this is the silly one) has anyone ever considered making a "Rubberized" track with the idea of perhaps working towards making the machines "Street legal"?

Thanks

Roger in Vegas

[herr-pear]

Gentlemen:

If my above post caused offense to anyone, I sincerely apologize and beg forgiveness. Any harm done was purely unintentional.

The reason I am afraid I ruffled feathers is the cold shoulder the post has received.

It is possible I've been mistaken for an insincere 14 year old; but in truth I am a 62 year old, medically retired engineer. And a genuine interest in Carriers of all types.

Again, Gentlemen, I apologize.

(signed)
Roger W. Hull
Las Vegas, Nevada

[Snowtractor]

Hmm, don't see any reason for that, let me read your post again and see if I can find something to be pissed at....nope not finding it.
Valid questions sir, I am not the one to answer them all, if you go to http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/carriers/t16.html on the main MLU site you may find some of what you are looking for in way of T-16 answers. You may find some answers on this forum by using the search feature, I know we have spoken of T-16's often.
I may add that there would be no need for rubber track because the cleats on a carrier track are so close they would be called street pads today. They will not harm the road unless the asphault is so hot car tires are leaving marks in it ( not the tar but road surface itself ), but that is very rare. I operated a 115,000 track hoe with street pads on it on the street and even rotating I barely scratched the surface. The T-16 is around 9000 pounds, a lot lighter. Though it can do a sweet job on the lawn if you turn.
There are a few guys with T-16's and carriers in Az. Russ Morgan used to have 4 for sale, he may have the addresses of the chaps he sold them to.
Also , if you were 14, this forum, as I have come to find, is to perserve and expand the knowledge of Cdn armed forces machines , weapons ,equipment and Soldiers ( sorry Geoff if I forgot someone ) .To pass on this information to a new generation is definitely a valid use of this forum. The combined knowledge of the lads and lasses on this site is enormous and the goodwill too...though I have Federal Government issues, we won't get in to that :-)
Cheers
Sean

[Stewart Loy]

Silly questions are the best questions, but ...

I was gonna scribble something down, but then I thought that some T-16 driver would make fun of me ( a poor old Universal Carrier owner) for saying the wrong thing. Then I went on a parts chasing expedition and forgot to reply. These are the times when my MTV attention span is not a help, but a hinderance.

The T-16 and my Universal Carrier look the same ( some might even say that a blind man would be happy to see either one ...) but they are very different, mostly steering wise.

My Universal Carrier, using technology from the 1930's propels itself with little effort from the Ford V-8 flathead. You cower behind the thin armour plate with both hands on the steering wheel. This wheel is connected to 2 steering systems. The initial steering works to slide the whole mass of the Carrier sideways on the massive cross tube. This action warps the track and allows for minor steering corrections, and manages the camber in English roadways.

When the steering wheel is turned more than a little the second steering takes over. The initial steering is overcome with a cam, and metal rods hooked up to the rear brakes apply the binders to one side or the other. This makes for a near neutral turn, but brake wear is appreciable, and all of the power from the flatty is required to turn sharply.

The Americans who devloped the T-16 upgraded the steering system of the T-16 by using a steered differential. With a bunch of extra gears in the rearend, one can bypass the flow of power to either track ( instead of braking the drum, as in the UC). This allows the other track to keep going, and affect a turn.

Quicker turns can be accomplished by grabbing one of the 2 seperate brake levers in the drivers compartment. There is also a parking brake. And a clutch, and throttle, and shifter. ( This is why I have a UC - that I can't seem to shift right ). The 1 ride I had lead me to think the park brakes are outboard and the steering levers are inboard. The park brake is under the nose in the middle.

You cannot really do a pivot turn with either - you really need seperatly powered tracks for that. The M113 and FV432 units do this, but are much more complex than these WW2 vintages boxes.

The fine pitch of the steel track, as Sean indicated, coupled with hard pavement equals quick spins around, with little chance of throwing a track. ( Which is good, because I bet all of your friends are somewhere else when this happens. ) Nice grass can be chewed up ( If you try a bit).

I guess that you need to get up here for a ride.


Stewart

PS - are you the same fellow that I wrote to a year or so ago about Bren bits?

[Stewart Loy]

Roger,

My pal Rob Groves sent me this article. I could not get the figures to post, but it is well written, and all of those gear pictures only confuse me ...

Tracked Vehicle Steering

Note: edited by moderator by deleting the copied text and inserting a link to the source with very helpful schematic drawings.

[rp-21]

Hi Roger in Vegas,
I have a t-16. Maybe i can help with the questions. I drive mine around the block once every other week or so to keep everything moving. It leaves small white lines on the asphalt that go away in about two weeks. The two outer sticks are the brakes, which in my case do not work so well. The two inners sticks are the rear end clutches (differential). I seem to be able to navigate with those fairly well. The faster you are going or the quicker you accelerate the better they work. I can atest to this as in one of my first trips i tried to make a left turn at about 20 mph, after it stopped spinning and i cleaned out my shorts i looked at the street and there was no noticeable damage to the asphalt just the same white lines ( also learned to pull on the stick a little lighter at speed). I believe mine is around 500 lbs lighter than a fully dressed t-16 as the armor has been reduced in gauge. If you ever come to CA you are more than welcome to come see it. I am currently trying to register it and obtain street legal status. I will let you know how that goes.
Hope that helps
Rob

[herr-pear]

Hi, Rob:

Yes, that is a big help and I thank you for the info. I'd love to come see your carrier but I don't travel much or well (I'm disabled). Still, if you'd tell me what part of CA you're in, I could think about it.

Please keep me up to date on your street-legal project. Around here, it's "No steel tracks" which is why I asked about rubberized ones.

Any chance for a picture?

Roger in Vegas
AKA
Herr-Pear

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
Silly questions are the best questions, but ...

The M113 and FV432 units do this, but are much more complex than these WW2 vintages boxes.

Silly questions are the ones that aren't asked. . . . .

FV432s are actually stunningly crude, and cruder than a Bren Carrier or a T16. They just have a diff and two huge contracting band brakes, anything other than the gentlest of veering on the road has the thing loose 50% of its speed or more and drop several gears of the auto box!!!

Right stick for right, left stick for left, both together for stop and push the top stick buttons to engage the parking pawls.

The Scottish vehicle licensing offices are refusing to road register them privately now as there is no separate parking brake mechanism, some people have come south of the border to do it!

R.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by FV623
FV432s are actually stunningly crude, and cruder than a Bren Carrier or a T16. They just have a diff and two huge contracting band brakes,

The set up is known as the Cletrac Controlled Differential System, developed by the Cleveland tractor company and used in their Cletrac crawlers.

Richard

[Stewart Loy]

That can only mean one thing ...

... I must get one.


Stewart

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by FV623
FV432s are actually stunningly crude, and cruder than a Bren Carrier or a T16. They just have a diff and two huge contracting band brakes, anything other than the gentlest of veering on the road has the thing loose 50% of its speed or more and drop several gears of the auto box!!!

Richard, do I understand correctly the FV432 has Braked Differential Steering, rather than Controlled Differential Steering? See Notes on Tracked Vehicle Steering for an explanation of the differences.
Like Richard F. said, the Controlled Differential Steering or Cletrac system was widely used in US tracked vehicles like the Sherman, T16, M29 and M113, and is quite efficient and easy to control. As explained by Stewart, the British Universal Carrier used track warping and Braked Differential Steering. I wonder if Braked Differential Steering was continued in the FV432 series - I doubt it, as it was barely adequate for the UC.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Roger,

I think most of your questions have been answered by now, but I'm having a go at it as well:

Originally posted by herr-pear
I assume two of the levers control the diff and the other two are steering brakes. Is that right? and which are which?

Indeed, the inner two levers control the differential steering. According to the operator's manual, these are to be used for changing direction. The outer two control the brakes and are to be used for stopping the vehicle - but there is a footbrake for that as well.

Also, can the T-16 do pivot turns? Without throwing a track?

No - see explanation of Controlled Differential Steering.

Lastly (And this is the silly one) has anyone ever considered making a "Rubberized" track with the idea of perhaps working towards making the machines "Street legal"?

Not silly at all! M29 Weasel owners have a problem finding useable track so they are looking for all kinds of alternatives, including the fitting of endless rubber track as used on current mini diggers. This could be an option for Universal Carriers as well, but would involve changing the sprockets and possibly road wheels as well.

Hope this helps,
Hanno

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Richard, do I understand correctly the FV432 has Braked Differential Steering, rather than Controlled Differential Steering?

I wonder if Braked Differential Steering was continued in the FV432 series - I doubt it, as it was barely adequate for the UC.

Well, I've just spoken to Darren about his 434 and it is nothing more than a diff and two huge brakes, just like a carrier without the track warping. He says even with the full harness on and two hands on one stick you can't quite stop one track.

R.