When did production of the #13 cab begin?

[Ryan]

I have just purchased a shorty Ford F15 4x2 Blitz, number 13 cab.
It was last registered for road use in 2007 and on the sticker it says it is a 1941 Ford. I thought #13 cabs were 1942 or later. So my question is when did Ford begin production of the #13 cab. Did Australian production start at the same time as Canadian?
I don't have a chassis number yet and the data plate is missing.

[jim sewell]

It came out in Canada in late 41 according to Bill Greggs book, both Ford and Chev.
Regards
Jim S.

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by rynoki

I have just purchased a shorty Ford F15 4x2 Blitz, number 13 cab.
It was last registered for road use in 2007 and on the sticker it says it is a 1941 Ford. I thought #13 cabs were 1942 or later. So my question is when did Ford begin production of the #13 cab. Did Australian production start at the same time as Canadian?
I don't have a chassis number yet and the data plate is missing.

OK, let's see some pictures then!

1941 is wrong. We didn't have cab 13s until 1942 as far as I'm aware. Is it a Canadian or Australian production vehicle? We had both types.

What's it's recent history as far as you know, Ryan?

Sounds like a nice purchase.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rynoki

I have just purchased a shorty Ford F15 4x2 Blitz, number 13 cab.

It is the one from nr Broken Hill. N.S.W.?

[Ryan]

Thanks Jim.
No Hanno it's not the Broken Hill Blitz. That would be good though.
Keith, this is one that was just up the road from me. Been in the same family for decades. Been a farm fire tender. Double springs on the rear.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Ryan,

Nice find!

[jim sewell]

Ryan
Here is an extract from Norm Darwins book " History of GM in Aust "

CMP vehicles
Engineering of CMP vehicles commenced at Woodville ( S Aust ) on September 1941 when the first parcel of data was received from the contractor , the UK Ministry of Supply , via GM Canada . The Blitz was produced in both Chev and Ford chassis with GMH only handling the GM chassis .

Of all the pictures I have seen in both of Norm's books on GMH I have only seen number 13 cabs . Looking at the production figures for Woodville military bodies , it appears production for CMP's started in 1942.

Regards
Jim S.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Another question that needs research (by me)!

Chervolet # 13 Can production may have started with 1942 Models, serial # 284XX0001. Prototype C8A HUP # 284450006 was supposedly built in February 1942 but it has an earlier, 1941 Model engine. I have to suggest that the evidence for Oshawa plant is therefore 'from February' or perhaps March, 1942.

As regards Windsor, I have no information save that there is a photo in one of Dr Gregg's books of the plant with # 12 and # 13 cab trucks which was at the change-over. demand S/M 2126 and 2127 were for C60S and F60S trucks for Australia, and included both # 12 and # 13 cabs I gather. One to 2126 was assembled in September 1942. I can only suggest that Australian production was a few months later than Canadian.

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by rynoki

Thanks Jim.
No Hanno it's not the Broken Hill Blitz. That would be good though.
Keith, this is one that was just up the road from me. Been in the same family for decades. Been a farm fire tender. Double springs on the rear.

Is that a small radiator I can see? It looks like one I saw many years ago in a newspaper article. I think that one had a Holden motor.

Going by the roof it's Australian production.

[Ryan]

Thanks again Jim and David. When I get the chassis number it may shed more light on the matter.
keith you are correct about the smaller radiator. It has a Holden 179 engine and holden gearbox. Do you still have the picture you saw in the newspaper?

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by rynoki

Thanks again Jim and David. When I get the chassis number it may shed more light on the matter.
keith you are correct about the smaller radiator. It has a Holden 179 engine and holden gearbox. Do you still have the picture you saw in the newspaper?

I may have it somewhere, but I doubt it as I haven't come across it lately. Just shows the old memory is still functioning though!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

My notes, just found, suggest that the # 13 Cab dates as follows:

The No.13 cab introduced a large number of improvements and modifications, which were agreed upon tentatively at a meeting at 7 Corps HQ on 22nd December 1940, of the Standing Committee at which Brigadier N.O. Carr, D.M.G.O., N.D.H.Q. [Deputy Master-General of the Ordnance], produced photographs of a new type of cab which would provide greater crew comfort and better engine access. He also mentioend that the engines in these trucks should run between 5,000 and 10,00 miles without attention other than provision of oil ans water.

This was taken from Dr Gregg who must have read the relevant file at the Archives in Ottawa though I have not had that pleasure yet.

Brigadier, formerly Colonel, Noel O. 'No Car' Carr was the DND's 'father' of the CMP. I often wondered if he retired as a Major-General.

[Jason Ginn]

I am not certain if this helps but I recently found this Cab 13 C60L in Thorne, Quebec dated January 13, 1942 on the dataplate. The truck was a "Gas-2" petrol carrier but had last been used as a snow plow/salter combo. I thought that it was odd that the army registration number "64.914" was painted on the first coat of yellow paint. It may have last been used by the RCAF but i thought that they had a seprate numbering sytem for vehicles.

J

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's a March 1942 Cab 13 data plate

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's an earlier one.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Jason must have slipped that Jan 13 1942 one in when I was looking for my March plates. Here's a Nov 7 1941 Cab 12 so we have it narrowed down to within 67 days. Does anyone else have any in between?

[cletrac (RIP)]

After that last post I remembered these Nov 11 41 trucks so we're down to between Nov 11 1941 and Jan 13 1942.

[Jason Ginn]

The Infoex lists a 13 cab Ford F15a that was owned by Harry Salens with a build date of 1942/02/15 but no serial or engine number is recorded.

j

[Jason Ginn]

The database on the Canadian Register website includes the following examples with relevant dates.

Late 12 cab Chevys:

No. 42 Cab Chev Portee, Model 8440X2 fitted with a 7G1 body, located in Leics, UK.

Build date: Nov 21 - 1941
Chassis number: 1844031825
Engine number: 3742886
Contract: SM2028
Registration number: CL4595318


Late 12 cab Fords:

No. 12 Cab F8 WIRE. Located in Essex, UK.

Build date: Nov 13 - 1941
Chassis number: 21825
Engine number:2G-49525-F
Contract: SM2014


No. 12 Cab F8 GS. Located in Devon, UK.

Build Date: Nov 17 -1941
Chassis number: 21922
Engine number: 2G-49764-F
Contract: SM392


The Database on the OLD CMP website contains the following:

No. 13 Cab Ford F60s 448M. Located at a Sawmill in Daylesford, Aust.

Build Date: Mar 13 -1942
Chassis number: 37206
Engine number: 3G-19676-F
Contract: SM2104

So the Ford changeover was between November 17, 1941 and March 13, 1942 (I am a hesitant to include the Salens truck dated February 15, 1942 without any supporting serial number information), and the Chev change was between November 21, 1941 and January 13, 1942.

Does anyone else have numbers that could narrow the changover windows down?

[david moore]

Apologies for somewhat off subject - but I'd like your e-mail address Jason. I've been trying to contact you re wiring of my cab 12 F8. If you wish use a PM or send to
davidandmarymoore@sympatico.ca
Cheers

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I was impressed by the data off the January 1942-build Gas-2! That is the earliest known (to me) 1942 MODEL C60L, and was clearly an Oshawa build for the Canadian Government and not a) a Ministry of Supply order for Australia and b) a Holden-assembled truck.

I agree at the moment with the suggested dates, but early January 1942 as fars as GM is concerned is in my opinion spot-on. Windsor however may have been slightly earlier or later, and may even have mixed cabs on the lines depending on chassis: see Dr Gregg's book with both types in the plant.

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

I was impressed by the data off the January 1942-build Gas-2! That is the earliest known (to me) 1942 MODEL C60L, and was clearly an Oshawa build for the Australian Government and not a) a Ministry of Supply order for Australia and b) a Holden-assembled truck.

I agree at the moment with the suggested dates, but early January 1942 as fars as GM is concerned is in my opinion spot-on. Windsor however may have been slightly earlier or later, and may even have mixed cabs on the lines depending on chassis: see Dr Gregg's book with both types in the plant.

Hello David and other MLU people. On this thread a couple of people have mentioned Dr Gregg's book. Could someone please provide some details of the book/s and if they are still available - plus where from for how much? See I only had a couple of questions to ask

Kind Regards
Lionel

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

They are BLUEPRINT FOR VICTORY Parts/Volumes 1, 2 and 3:

http://www.rcakitshop.net/catalog/in...ae6fea6a3944f2

I think I have a few copies now of Volume 3, and I also have a signed copy of Volume 2 which is a limited edition plastic folder with printed pages in aort of looseleaf arrangement, ideal for modelers. There is a photo in there in connection, from memory, relating to Ford's introduction of a serial number system, of # 12 and 13 cabs parked in a building when new. I suspect that the photo was out of the National Archives but have yet to find it.

The books are excellent, and Volume 1 I gather has been reprinted so my copy must be one of the last of the later printing. They have stood the test of time very well, but I have updated a lot of the information therein, from the Archives, and also sources not available to Bill Gregg at the time. I regret that Sid Swallow died before I was able to communicate with him but I did exchange letters with Fords/ Canadian Mechanization HQ's Herb Ronson, although he died not long after I last heard from him; his brother who worked on Carriers at Fords survived him but I never contacted him.

That all said I keep finding nuggets of new information about the British assembly operations, usually from obscure files in the Archives, and I thus never stop improving my own literary work. I am just about to publish a two-parter on the Canadian Mechanization Depot at Citroen cars in Slough, Buckinghamshire, in VINTAGE ROADSCENE magazine. I wrote about the Southampton CMD in issue 110, and have published my work on the origins of CMPs in past issues of VRS (13 I think!). However I could not have done it without more than a nod of assistance from Bill's books.

[Ryan]

It's been a couple of years since this thread was added too.
Has anyone in that time come across new trucks or data plates to narrow down the cab 13 production start point?

[Tony Smith]

The Ford Parts Catalogues state the new design cabs were introduced from Chassis Number 21566, but note the chassis numbers for the 12 Cabs listed by Jason Ginn in post #19 above! No date is specified for the build date of 21566, but the 13 Cab is first listed in Catalogue SE39-42, with a print date of Jan '42.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by David Hayward

Aussie Gas-2
I was impressed by the data off the January 1942-build Gas-2! That is the earliest known (to me) 1942 MODEL C60L, and was clearly an Oshawa build for the Australian Government and not a) a Ministry of Supply order for Australia and b) a Holden-assembled truck.

David, why do you claim this to be an Aussie build??? Seems to me it never left Canada!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have amended the offending word. It was clearly a CDLV contract!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Years ago I had the pleasure of corresponding with Bart Vanderveen about when certain changes were made to HUPs. At that time some of the data bases which are now available were not. Bart's approach was to look at the changes in part numbers which often include notation of before or after such and such a serial number. Knowing the basic dates of the serial numbers to production dates gives a fairly tight dating. At that time Bart was trying to collect copies of all the various HUP parts books, I mailed him a June 1945 version.

Also at the CMP Forum in 84 memory says there was a discussion of when stuff happened, and a comment was made that cut dates are not as hard and fast as people might thing because parts in process could be used up after the change over date.

Cheers Phil

[Stew Robertson]

You are right Phil I remeber that story very well It was not as cut and dried as everyone was led to believe
I have the tapes but I am having a little problem desiphering them
I will try to find the answer
Stew