MK I carrier seats

[universalgrl]

Is any one out there making MK I carrier seat parts. I have borrowed a drivers seat to copy and am going to attempt to make my own seats both drivers and gunners.
The only hard parts to make are the castings where the seats attach to the hull.

[universalgrl]

Again talking about MK I carrier seats.
Does any one have the dimentions for the seat backs, width, height, thickness of the board, is the board plywood?
Thickness of the padding.
Nigels books have good pictures but no figures.
I have the plates for the top of the seat backs and 2 upper mounting brackets.

[Lynn Eades]

I dont have the info you require, and need the same for my self, so as I attempt to help you with what I can. I imagine there are quite a few Canadians around you with originals, but they are obviously shy.
The MkI* seats (apart from where "handedness" applies) are the same both sides. That means they both go up and down.
The top brackets are the same as the bottom brackets and you will find matching pairs of holes in the division plate for the lower ones.
What I have here is the original seat back covers.
From them, I would guess that the foam/padding/ horse hair etc is 1.000" (or 25mm) thick.
The overall width is 37.5mm, and the overall height is 647mm.
This includes the borders. There are 4 lift the dot things on each side and 4 along the top.
There are 5 along the bottom, but the bottom end opens for the padding to be inserted. The L.T.D things are part of the front cover, and the studs for the L.T.D fittings pass through eylets in the rear half of the cover.
I didnt have a sample so cut some flat bar, and welded some rod to it for my brackets across what I would guess is 1/2" ply.
My covers may have shrunk, but the gap between the brackets on the div plate will tell you the max width.
I cannot tell you what height the top of the seat back sits at.
If you need any more info I can do that regards the bases.
I can't remember details, but Jordans carrier thread is very informative.
Go Girl!

ps. I think the stud photo is Jordans. If you can find a source. I need them.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's some pics of a Mk2 seats but I don't know if the Mk1 were the same. If they were I'll get you some measurements.

[Lynn Eades]

They are quite different, but thanks for the pictures, I have never seen the MKII* seats before.

[shaun]

Originally Posted by cletrac

Here's some pics of a Mk2 seats but I don't know if the Mk1 were the same. If they were I'll get you some measurements.

Those are really modified Mk2 seats ! in fact the gunners seat looks totaly wrong.

[Lynn Eades]

Thanks for that very helpful post.
However can I suggest that is a MII* seat back, as the early (1941 MkI*) parts book shows the same upper and lower brackets on the division plate, and the same straight ended bar (CTL5062), at the top and bottom of the seat back.
Another possibility is, just a change during production, ie. Early and late MkI* production.

[cletrac (RIP)]

On close inspection of my seats, I'd say the back supports and the base on the gunners seat are original. The mounting rod across the back is welded on and not original and the vertical support under the base is an add on too. What I have of the drivers seat looks original but those cast arms are broken off.

[kevin powles]

Hi,I have an original c31ucw-104174 Mk2 carrier plywood seat back complete with mounting bolts and square nuts up for trade.

kevin.

[Lynn Eades]

With all due respect, I would suggest that none of the seat bits in your first two, and the last, photos are carrier related. I can see where the bottom seat back mounts are in your hull. The base frame in the 3rd and 4th photos is correct.
It would be interesting to know what your seats are from.
If your seats were originally carrier bits, they would have part numbers on the bits.

[Michael R.]

Bobbie J started this thread when asking: Is any one out there making MK I carrier seat parts.

As for the seat cushion covers TL 7372 and seat back covers TL & CTL 12657-A as found on Canadian manufactured Universal Carrier variants (not Windsor Carrier):
These are seat cushion and backrest from the forward compartment for driver and gunner of the Canadian made MKI* & NO-2 series, and driver of the NO-2 MKII*. (not the NO-2 MKII* gunner seat back) The original material used as a guide for making copies have dates of 1942 on the seat cushion cover and 1943 on the seat back cover.



The seat back covers use seventeen lift-the-dot fasteners and five grommets to fasten the cover to the backboard. The 1944 edition of Illustrated Parts Catalogue FUC-03 has an error in the seat back image regards positioning of the lift-the-dot fasteners, in that the seat back appears upside down. No, it is not from OZ or NZ. As Kevin P points out: Canadian made Universal Carriers MKI* are usually found with four lift-the-dot fasteners postioned along the top and each side, with five on the bottom where the opening is for the padding. The rear panel below those five lower lift-the-dots is retained in place on the lift-the-dot stud through the use of five brass grommets. Chilwell shows the British made backrest pad has a different layout for the fasteners.



At least two methods of attaching the male portion of the lift-the-dot fastener "stud" on the 3/8 inch plywood back board are found. One uses a brass flat-head countersunk screw through the back of the mounting board into the bottom of the stud. You can see this style in the images from Jordan B. as posted by Lynn E. The other uses a captive threaded post (8-32) in the stud through the back board, retained by a nut.



The Canadian made back board and divisional wall mounting hardware is atypical of the examples found in the British Chilwell Illustrated Parts Catalogue. Canadian seat backs are adjustable for distance from the divisional wall through two methods, British first followed by Canadian replacements. The Canadian lower portion employs use of a left and right side captive adjustment lever rod fitted using two stand-offs on the divisional wall. There are two hooks attached to the mounting board that surround the adjustment lever rod.

The upper portion of the Canadian back board uses a single mounting plate, but can be found with both single position mounting plate bracket(s) C01UC 105802/03 and double position mounting plate bracket(s), TL 5061/62 fitted to the divisional wall. I surely do not know what the standard was: surviving examples suggest whatever was at hand when the vehicle was on the production line was fitted, then refitted as necessary in the field. What we have been refitting in our restorations may or may not reflect production, but in the end it works well enough.



The rounded edge on the forward seat cushion covers (TL7372) should not be confused with the square pads intended for the rear compartment passengers, when used as both rear seats and kneeling pads. Those pads are found as part number CTL 1355 A, with British cushions TL 12657, and Canadian cushions CTL 12657-A (replaced by four (4) part number variations), of which two variations are also used in the NO-2 MKII*, where four cushions are part of the E.I.S..

[Michael R.]

The original seat cushions and seat back cushions used an assortment of springs and horse-hair filled cloth pads. Although the horse-hair padding can be purchased, the price and performance when compared with modern fibre-form compressed polyester makes the use of horse hair less desirable. Jack I. has a fresh supply of horse hair, but for the rest of us I imagine the compressed polyester is good 'nuf.

When the cushions have additional padding, they take on a pleasing form and added level of creature comfort. Not that most of us are driving great distances or for extended times, but comfort all the same. The seat back on the left has half the amount of padding from that pictured to the right side. Too much padding pulls against the lift-the-dots fasteners somewhat, there is a happy medium at about 2"; I hope after a period of time the padding will settle in nicely. The horse hair padding does not hold a sharp 90 degree edge, so an original seat back will look very different from a new one if the new one is fitted with a 90 degree cut foam pad.

These seat covers were made with marine grade vinyl, stitched on an industrial sewing machine using 69 polyester thread and needle size 18 as appropriate for the material. The home use sewing machine simply does not work well with these components. The original seat bottom cushion cover has piping around top and bottom, with four black coloured brass snaps for access to the spring box and cushion pad. I did not use the original style combination of spring box and horse-hair filled cloth pad. The seat bottom cover as well as the seat back cover is filled with compressed polyester, which is made for exterior use as it is washable, mildew resistant, quick drying and odor free.

[Jim Burrill]

I have one NOS Wireless Operator's seat back cover and have seen other originals and they all look a shade or two lighter than what you have used, but, honestly, That is still pretty close!

Where did you get the fabric from? Can you post the contact infor? URL? phone number for the shop you got it from?

Thanks!!

[Jim Burrill]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

With all due respect, I would suggest that none of the seat bits in your first two, and the last, photos are carrier related. I can see where the bottom seat back mounts are in your hull. The base frame in the 3rd and 4th photos is correct.
It would be interesting to know what your seats are from.
If your seats were originally carrier bits, they would have part numbers on the bits.

I thought they looked like US Half track seats! I am at work, but I will look tonight at the seats my fellow club member has in his White HT project.

[Michael R.]

The seat back, or "driver's and gunner's backrest" , mounts seventeen lift-the-dot fasteners. Each fastener has four components when using the threaded post style. Ideally you want a factory punch tool to prepare the material for fitting the female portion.

The male portion of the lift-the-dot can be found in at least two fastening styles. In the posted image you can see one style using the captive threaded post and nut, as well as another style using the flat head countersunk screw style mentioned earlier. The threaded post and nut style is on a 1942 dated board with a stenciled part number C01UC-105801B (see FUC-03 Page 272). The finish on the threaded stud is plated, i.e. it is not anodized like the two components of the top plate. Note the difference in the stud finish on the other board?


The square profile rear seat and kneeling pad, TL 12657/CTL 12657A/CTL 12657B is pictured. This seat pad has a horse-hair filled cushion only, no spring box as found in the driver and gunner seats. As such it is one-third the depth or thickness of the front seats. No wonder they are found double up, with one cushion on top of the other.


When you also compare the size of the backrest for the rear compartment passenger with the backrest used by the driver and gunner, it must have been miserable in the back. The rear backrest is "deeper" in that it measures 1-1/4 inch sides vs the seat backs at 3/4 inch. Beats ground pounding?



The brackets pictured are 1942 dated TL 5061 and TL 5062. They have the double positions for fitting the mounting plate. Unlike the single position bracket C01UC-105802-03 L.H. and R.H. that replaced depleted stock of TL 5061/5062.

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by Jim Burrill

I have one NOS Wireless Operator's seat back cover and have seen other originals and they all look a shade or two lighter than what you have used, but, honestly, That is still pretty close!

Where did you get the fabric from? Can you post the contact infor? URL? phone number for the shop you got it from?

Thanks!!

PM sent with requested information. Tell the lurkers to join up and contribute.

If the colour (color) is darker than the seventy year old material we are comparing it with . . .yes, it is. Seventy years from now . . .

[kevin powles]

Hi, Very interesting stuff on carrier seat pads, when I made mine i Realised the horse hair went in the end with the five 'lift the dot' fastners, then I got thinking does the five go at the top or does the four 'lift the dots' go at the top?.

I have seen an original black and white carrier picture of a canadian carrier with four at the top, and original british mortar carrier with 5 at the top

kev.

[Michael R.]

The last seating cover for the Canadian MKI* Universal Carrier series. Ten lift-the-dot fasteners, three grommets at the cushion pad opening. This example is dated F.M.CO. 41, with part number TL 13173. There is a wood mounting base fitted on a metal mounting plate. The metal plate is fixed to the upper rear armour plate just to the inside of the signal pistol case if so stowed.

This seat back can be found in both the C01UC MKI* and the C21 UCM NO-2.

[universalgrl]

In post # 4 arn't those FAT seats the ones that flip forward so the rear seat passengers can get out, I'm looking at a 1/35 FAT.
The MK I front carrier seatback are fairly easy to reproduce. Does any one have pictures of the mounts for the rear seat pads, dimensions would really help.
One pic of my drivers seat and a pdf which I obtained from one of the guys in Ont.

Bobbie J

[Michael R.]

E-mail sent with drawings of the rear seat bearers.

[Michael R.]

Chilwell illustrations of British seat backrest mounting methods.

[RichardT10829]

Does anyone have any images or measurements of the seat base for the rear seat ? It appears to be two cushions strapped together on a board,looking at the pics above supplied by Michael.

[kevin powles]

Richard, I havernt seen any measurements but I think there might be another picture of this seat set up in Nigel's vol 3 box of drawings, I am going to make two and thought is would be easy to gauge the dimensions from the carrier when you have the two rails in place it sits on and from an original cusion. But if anyone has an original ?, I know Jordan made one and it's in his carrier thread. Also the famous looking down photo might give an overview.

Kevin

[RichardT10829]

I noticed notches in the angle iron on the hull wall and presumed there are batons on te base of the seat board to stop it sliding out. Just

[Tom Millward]

Hello Gents,

I want to make up the front and rear seat backrest for my Mk1, can anyone confirm the thickness of the radio operators wooden board and the cushions for both front and rear backrests?

I read this from Michael R earlier in the post but I’m not sure if it’s the backboard or the cushion that he’s referring to?

“When you also compare the size of the backrest for the rear compartment passenger with the backrest used by the driver and gunner, it must have been miserable in the back. The rear backrest is "deeper" in that it measures 1-1/4 inch sides vs the seat backs at 3/4 inch. Beats ground pounding?”

Cheers

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by Tom Millward

Hello Gents,
I want to make up the front and rear seat backrest for my Mk1, can anyone confirm the thickness of the radio operators wooden board and the cushions for both front and rear backrests?

“When you also compare the size of the backrest for the rear compartment passenger with the backrest used by the driver and gunner, it must have been miserable in the back. The rear backrest is "deeper" in that it measures 1-1/4 inch sides vs the seat backs at 3/4 inch. Beats ground pounding?”

On the backrests for driver and gunner, the corner depth is sewn in at 3/4”, but in practice when modern padding is installed the depth is greater towards the centre. Show or Go? I enjoy more backrest padding than found in the factory pads.

The rear compartment backrest cover has 1-1/4” corners sewn in.

The cover mounts on a plywood board, the board being retained on a metal plate using six NO. 8 woodscrews. The woodscrews are countersunk head, 1/2” long.

How thick do you want to make the mounting board? I use 9mm exterior grade plywood. It may be prudent to move up one size for a thicker board. Why? Because you are also mounting the male posts for the Lift-the-Dot fasteners, which are available as threaded post or screw. With a slightly thicker mounting hoard you will not be trimming the length of the screw type posts and they are less likely to be unintentionally pulled out.

[Tom Millward]

That’s great, thank you R. That will give me enough to get some seat backs made. Got a load of ply cut and delivered to make the rear seat (thanks to Jordan’s post on his efforts), and seat backs etc. I’ll go thick for the rear seat back then to give enough depth for the screw in fasteners. I think I’ve gone 3/4”, as it looks like deep in the photos. It can’t be very comfortable for the passenger as the seat back is so far back from the seat cushion, unless they were expecting the radio operator to sit with his small pack on?

I’ll post something when I’ve finished my attempt.