"1942 Marmon-Herrington ID Plate Chinese Truck" - Chinese, anyone?!?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I've just won a "1942 MARMON HERRINGTON ID PLATE CHINESE TRUCK" on eBay. I've bid on it as I think it actually is the data plate off a Marmon-Herrington CTLS-4TAC Light Tank. Until now, I've only read about China ordering a quantity of these tanks; I've always doubted these were actually delivered as I could find no further no evidence. This data plate - if indeed it is off a CTLS-4TAC Light Tank - proves at least a number of them were finished on account of a Chinese order.

Anyway, for now I'd like to ask if anyone can translate the Chinese characters on the data plate for me?

To be continued as soon as I see this plate in the metal!

Thanks,
Hanno

[Snowtractor]

Hi Hanno, first ine is " Sum loy ming chow " hope that helps
Sean

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Anyway, for now I'd like to ask if anyone can translate the Chinese characters on the data plate for me?

Sean
Work backwards.....
The first line,left handside are the characters for..Model..
Line below are characters for serial number..and so on...
Makes sense to me anyway...
Had Chinese food last night with a side of sqirrel nuts so know all this...
If you want to have the characters pronounced you are going to have to ask Hanno,our resident linguist...
Half a sack of Heineken...t'ree..four shots of Bols..a quick kick in the arse and old Hanno can speak any kind of language you want....

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
This data plate - if indeed it is off a CTLS-4TAC Light Tank - proves at least a number of them were finished on account of a Chinese order.

From TANKS! > China: "It may be possible that Marmon Herrington completed 82 of either this tank or the CTLS-4TAY or a combination of the two and delivered them to China. The U.S. Military Assistance Program lists "82 Miscellaneous Tanks" as delivered."

Intriguing stuff...

H.

[nuyt]

Hanno, check this out:

Jane's WW2 Tanks and fighting vehicles (2003), page 191/192 is very clear:

In May 41 the US ordered 240 CTLS for Lendlease purposes to be delivered to China. When the first tanks were completed in March42, Chinese officials rejected them flatly.

By July 42 the whole batch had been completed. They were designated T14 and T15 (depending on the position of the turret.

Some were used by the US in Alaska.

They were withdrawn and scrapped in 1943.

HTH,
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
In May 41 the US ordered 240 CTLS for Lendlease purposes to be delivered to China. When the first tanks were completed in March42, Chinese officials rejected them flatly.

By July 42 the whole batch had been completed. They were designated T14 and T15 (depending on the position of the turret.

Some were used by the US in Alaska.

They were withdrawn and scrapped in 1943.

Thanks Nuyt, but Jane's listing is too generic. What we need to find out is whether these Marmon-Herrington Light Tanks shipped to China were actually tanks built for the KNIL. We know for a fact that 234 CTLS Light Tanks were ordered by them, but only a handful made it to the NEI before the surrender to Japan. The remainder of the order were then taken over by US Ordnance for Lend-Lease purposes, handing them out piecemeal to anyone who was interested (including the original buyers who reportedly had paid for them in full...). I assume it was during this period that the Chinese were offered them. As far as I know China was not frantically re-arming like the NEI, and not being able to buy all the needed from the US or UK governments, turned their wallet over to companies like Marmon-Herrington.

Like I said, I think this is intriguing stuff!

H.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
......as I think it actually is the data plate off a Marmon-Herrington CTLS-4TAC Light Tank.

Hanno, does the top field on the right side seem to say "CRS 4TAC", or "CR5 4TAC"?

What did these tanks look like? Do you have a pic?

Were they rejected on the orders of that famous Chinese General Sunlay WonTon Balls?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Hanno, does the top field on the right side seem to say "CRS 4TAC", or "CR5 4TAC"?

"4TAC" is clear, but the first bit seems to be three characters only, whereas I would expect "CTLS" there. I'll know for sure when I get the plate home.

What did these tanks look like? Do you have a pic?

Attached goes a pic of a left-hand drive CTLS-4TAY, the right-hand drive version was the CTLS-4TAC (it could also be the other way round as there is some confusion about their designation, though). The turret on the CTLS could only rotate through 240 degrees, so it was envisaged they would be operated in pairs. Very much a stop-gap tank, which proved to be not very succesful. As far as I know they were only used in combat once: on 2 March 1942 the KNIL engaged the Japanese forces using seven Marmon-Herrington Light Tanks and seventeen Vickers-Carden-Loyd Commercial Model 1936 Light Tanks. It was the first and last(!) battle in which Dutch troops used tanks.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
As far as I know they were only used in combat once: on 2 March 1942 the KNIL engaged the Japanese forces using seven Marmon-Herrington Light Tanks and seventeen Vickers-Carden-Loyd Commercial Model 1936 Light Tanks. It was the first and last(!) battle in which Dutch troops used tanks.

Here's some more information on this action:

Shortly after the Japanese landed on Java, the Mobile Column spearheaded a major counter-attack against Japanese units holding Soebang village and Kalidjati airfield on Eastern Java. Although all three tank platoons successfully penetrated the Japanese lines and briefly operated at will, the mechanized infantry company was unable to advance at the same pace. As a result, the tanks were cut off in an urban environment without infantry support. The Japanese then brought up 47mm AT guns and were able to knock out a number of tanks and armored cars.

The Dutch attack stalled as night approached and the Column’s commander decided to withdrawal and regroup. Although the Vickers tanks had radios, the newly arrived Marmon-Herringtons did not, so he was forced to send motorcycles onto the battlefield carrying the orders to fall back. By the time the Dutch managed to disengage, their losses numbered 13 tanks, one armored car, five Overalwagens and one AT gun. The Column also lost 14 dead, 13 wounded and 36 missing.

Source: "Dutch (KNIL) Armoured Units in the Dutch East Indies, 1941-1942" by Tom Womack

[nuyt]

Hanno,you wrote:

"What we need to find out is whether these Marmon-Herrington Light Tanks shipped to China were actually tanks built for the KNIL."

I think no MH's were shipped to China. They never left the US and were rejected by Chinese officials IN the US (well, that's how I understood it and it may be wrong of course)

The "Chinese" Marmon-Herringtons were NOT ordered by China but by the US in a later stage than the KNIL order. Of course the two orders must have messed up fragile production processes within the MH company!

So there were two orders of light tanks to MH: one KNIL of 234, one US (to be handed out in China) of 240!

Both orders were fullfilled/completed.

No KNIL tanks were shipped to China: Remember after deliveries to KNIL in Dutch East and West Indies, to Australia and after LL deliveries to Latin-America, hardly any MH tank remains unaccounted for.

Cheers,
Nuyt

Overvalwagens!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
I think no MH's were shipped to China. They never left the US and were rejected by Chinese officials IN the US (well, that's how I understood it and it may be wrong of course)

The "Chinese" Marmon-Herringtons were NOT ordered by China but by the US in a later stage than the KNIL order. Of course the two orders must have messed up fragile production processes within the MH company!

So there were two orders of light tanks to MH: one KNIL of 234, one US (to be handed out in China) of 240!

Both orders were fullfilled/completed.

No KNIL tanks were shipped to China: Remember after deliveries to KNIL in Dutch East and West Indies, to Australia and after LL deliveries to Latin-America, hardly any MH tank remains unaccounted for.

Nuyt, those 240 Marmon-Herrington tanks were not actually ordered by the US Ordnance Department. They were the balance of the non-delivered KNIL order, out of a total of 628 light and medium tanks (which I can't believe were all actually manufactured even though they were reportedly paid for). Ordnance took possession of this stock (probably had unfished examples assembled) and redesignated the CTLS-4TAC and -4TAY as Light Tank T14 and T16. They were used for training and guarding remote bases on Alaska (Dutch Harbor, see pic below) and Newfoundland.
But as the US Army really had no need for them, the US government supplied them under the Military Assistance Program to the Netherlands goverment (Surinam and West Indies), various Latin-American countries (Cuba, Ecuador, Guatemala, Mexico) and, reportedly, China.
I would not be surprised those "82 Miscellaneous Tanks" as delivered to China under the MAP were actually Marmon-Herringtons. But as I have not found favourable reports about these tanks (even though some of them soldiered on until the 1950s!), it could well be the Chinese rejected the rest of the order after receiving this initial batch. This point will need further research. What are your sources?

Regards,
Hanno
Marmon-Herrington military vehicles in service: the Netherlands

[nuyt]

Hanno, I still use Jane's as mentioned above.

Here we go:

KNIL ordered 234 light tanks CTLS, of which:

-(estimate) 24 delivered to Java;

-149 delivered to Australia;

-39 delivered to Dutch West Indies;

makes 212 out of 234 accounted for. No room for 82 CTLS shipped to China. There must have been a second order.

Jane's states the US were left with 240 CTLS which is impossible if there was just the KNIL order.

Note rejection of the Chines order took place in March 1942 allready. Most KNIL tanks were already at sea. CTMS and MTLS order was still in production.

Greetings,
Nuyt

[John McGillivray]

There is one person from China, at the place where I work. I showed him the picture of the plate in the first post. His translation is as follows:

Serial Number…..…Type
Motor Number….….Date
Normal Speed……...Highest Speed.

I hope that this helps, or dose it muddy the water more?

[Tony Smith]

As the Tanks would have arrived in Australia as refugee cargo, there's a question of wether they became the property of the NEI representatives in Australia or if they were comandeered by the Australian authorities. As the Australian Army didn't order them, they would not have become Army property, they might come under the control of the Dept of Supply.
This Department was on the Eastern Supply Group Council (might have even controlled it), the same Council which organised for the total production of 400 Australian 3" mortar carriers to be shipped to Chinese Nationalists as aid. If the M-H tanks were shipped to China as aid though, it wouldn't explain the existance of an American builders plate in Chinese!

[nuyt]

The following info is from Shane Lovell on Hanno's MH website:

"A tank situation report of 24 July 1942 identified the distribution of the 141 Marmon-Herringtons:
12 Australian Armoured Regiment 8 (previously 13 Motorised Regiment)
13 Australian Armoured Regiment 8 (previously 104 Motorised Regiment
14 Australian Armoured Regiment 8 (previously 18 Motorised Regiment)
3rd Australian Army Tank Brigade 20 (comprising 1, 2 & 3 Aust Army Tank Bn)
Australian AFV School 10
Royal Military College, Duntroon 3
1st Australian Armd Corps Training Regiment 8
2nd Australian Armd Corps Training Regiment 8
3rd Australian Armd Corps Training Regiment 8
4th Australian Armd Corps Training Regiment 8
Ordnance Depots – Victoria 4
Ordnance Depots – New South Wales 48"

HTH
Nuyt

[nuyt]

An addition to my previous posts.

Steve Zaloga in his 2001 US Light Tanks at War (page 11) states that 452 CTLS light tanks were built (240 taken over by US, 149 sent to AU, 63 to the Dutch). No word on China.

In my post above I come to 212 built for KNIL in addition to the "China" order of 240, which makes the same grand total of CTLS of 452 as Zaloga mentions, btw.

Nuyt

[nuyt]

Let's double check.

Jane's states that "over 1600" tanks were produced by MH during WW2:

here we go:
-452 CTLS (KNIL and "China" order);
-194 CTMS (KNIL)
-125 MTLS (KNIL, of 200 ordered)
-830 M22 Locusts (US Army)

1601 total

Fits like a glove.

Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
I hope that this helps, or dose it muddy the water more?

Excellent, John, just what I was looking for! Please thank your Chinese co-worker.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
The following info is from Shane Lovell on Hanno's MH website:

See "Marmon-Herrington Two-Man Tanks in Australian Service" by Shane Lovell for the full story.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Fits like a glove.

Excellent, Nuyt! Good to see people like Lee Ness and Steve Zaloga continuing research into these little-known tanks - it is yielding valuable information.

Thanks,
H.

[hansheesakkers]

Yes documents speak of 234 ordered by Dutch East Indies and 240 by China.
During my research for the Dutch M.H. tanks I stumbled on many difficulties, for example the numbers delivered.
Only thing for sure is that the Dutch West Indies received 39 tanks from the dutch orders. The East Indies, well a source mentiones the delivery of 80 (?). These arrived on the "Straat Soenda" freighter. This ship run aground just before the coast of Java and all tanks were salvaged. Seven were even put in action.
Put the numbers all together the Dutch received 119 tanks. Remaining 115 that were delivered to Australia who received pressumably 149 tanks. If all these figures are right this means that 34 were Chinese (?). To make it even more difficult an ols US marine who served an Iceland told me the had some CTLS 4TA tanks on Iceland (?) and he is sure they were Dutch????
If this is true it means that the Australians received more Chinese tanks then we now!!!
So the glove does NOT fit perfectly yet!!

The hunt goes on.

hans H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

The data plate came in today, it is indeed off a CTLS-4TAC and lists the following details:

Serial Number ... 3174-27 (last digit is a 1 overstruck by a 7) | Type ... CTLS-4TAC
Motor Number ... 176333 | Date ... 4-6-42
Normal Speed ... 35 | Highest Speed ... 50

The first blank line has what looks like a US Ordnance acceptance stamp? Two crossed gun barrels in an "O" followed by "FAM"

Hans, is the serial number and/or delivery date of any help to you? I'd love to leave no stone unturned to hunt down the whole story behind these tanks.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
No word on China.

But Marmon-Herrington surely did mention the Dutch!

This ad is up for auction at eBay (Item number: 6502152640) - I won't be bidding as a have a copy already.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Two more data plates of Dutch Marmon-Herrington tanks have surfaced at the Aberdeen Proving Ground Museum - see
http://com-central.net/index.php?nam...wtopic&p=94647

A very interesting fact is that they are in Dutch!


Marmon-Herrington CTMS-1TB1



Marmon-Herrington CTMS-1G14

[Mike Kelly]

I had a rare radio set for one of the Dutch NE tanks ( made by LINK co. of USA )..it went to the AWM Canberra ... It was a early FM set , it was xtal locked on a single channel . It came with the original whip antenna and headphones .. amazing .. AN OLD ham GAVE IT TO ME. He had bought it just after the war from a surplus store in Melbourne and kept it intact for over 40 years ..THANKS to VK3JO..now silent key .

MIK

[marco]

Hi Hanno,

The text "FAM" is the acceptance mark for the Ordnance district Cincinnati, the district in which the M-H factory was located.
It stands for Col. Fred A. McMahon, the Cincinnati district chief at that time.

Marco

[ron]

Hi Hanno,
You have the I D plate anf I have the complete drive line, all we need now is a bit more scrap metal and we are in business, Regards Ron

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I had a rare radio set for one of the Dutch NE tanks ( made by LINK co. of USA )..it went to the AWM Canberra ...

Mike, I recall you did give that radio to the AWM. I could chip in with the data plate and if they buy Ron´s M-H drive train they are halfway a complete tank!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by marco

The text "FAM" is the acceptance mark for the Ordnance district Cincinnati, the district in which the M-H factory was located.
It stands for Col. Fred A. McMahon, the Cincinnati district chief at that time.

Hi Marco,

Thanks for the information!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by nuyt

I think no MH's were shipped to China. They never left the US and were rejected by Chinese officials IN the US (well, that's how I understood it and it may be wrong of course)

I found some more information on this subject in CHAPTER I: The Military Missions of The Ordnance Department: on beachhead and battlefront. This publication paints a picture of the Chinese not being entirely ready to receive and use tanks (my bold):

In General Magruder's advance party, which left by air for China on 18 September 1941, was his chief of staff, Col. Edward E. MacMorland, an Ordnance officer. Stopping at Honolulu, Midway, and Wake, which MacMorland found "in a fever of defense preparations," and at Guam—"practically defenseless"—the party spent several days in Manila conferring with General Douglas MacArthur before flying via Hong Kong to Chungking. Arriving in much-bombed Chungking on 9 October, the members of the mission were surprised to find no blackout—electric lights were blazing. They were given a fine brick building for their headquarters and living quarters, with a pleasant garden and a huge staff of servants, and were immediately engulfed in a round of receptions and elaborate, fourteen-course dinners.35

On MacMorland's recommendation, the two Ordnance members of the China Mission were a specialist on arsenals and production, Lt. Col. Walter H. Soderholm, and a specialist on maintenance, 1st Lt. Eugene P. Laybourn. Soderholm came in by air on 23 October. Laybourn was the last to arrive, having stayed behind to participate in conferences on the 7-ton Marmon-Herrington tank that seemed the most practical tank to furnish the Chinese, since it was in production and could be used on the primitive Chinese road net. With Lt. Col. John R. Francis, the mission's tank expert, and four or five other members of the mission, including officers concerned with the Burma Road, he arrived at the port of Rangoon on the Silver Dawn the second week of November and traveled up the Burma Road, making firsthand observations on a problem that had received a good deal of study—how to transport the tanks from Lashio, the railhead, to Chungking. ( See Map 1)

Soderholm conferred with Maj. Gen. Yu Ta-wei, the Chinese Army's Chief of Ordnance, and visited Chinese arsenals. What he found in the twenty arsenals was not encouraging. There were about a million rifles. There was a heterogeneous assortment of artillery from the arsenals of Europe and Japan, about 800 pieces, but spare parts and ammunition, especially for the artillery brought from the Soviet Union, were almost exhausted. The Chinese arsenals could make field artillery, mortars, machine guns, rifles, and ammunition, but for several months had been operating at one-fourth capacity because of shortages of raw materials. Powder and metal for ammunition were almost nonexistent. The most pressing need seemed to be for arsenal metals, explosives, and machinery, and for finished small arms ammunition. Next in importance were infantry weapons and artillery. Members of AMMISCA learned that most of General Yu's needs for procurement had already been submitted by T. V. Soong, head of China Defense Supplies, Inc., the purchasing authority in the United States; and that Mr. Soong's estimates had been based on thirty Chinese divisions, a strength that had not been finally approved by Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. Until it was approved, General Magruder radioed Secretary of War Stimson, little more could be done on matériel. In any case it seemed impossible to obtain from the Chinese definite data on what was most needed.

Vagueness and procrastination on the part of Chinese military leaders also hampered the Ordnance officers in making plans for training Chinese soldiers in the use of lend-lease arms. They learned that the Generalissimo contemplated establishing two training centers, one near Kunming, the other near Kweiyang, but the Chinese National Military Council hesitated to locate the centers or name their commanders. On the all-important subject of tanks, it was not until 27 November that Lt. Gen. Shueh Ting-Yao, in charge of mechanized training, asked Colonel MacMorland what buildings and grounds would be needed for an armored force training school. Plans for the organization and use of tank and scout car units had not gone beyond the most rudimentary stage.