Preservation versus Restoration

[Ed Storey]

This editorial was published in the October-November 2023 edition of the MVPA-HA magazine History In Motion. I found it covered some good points and thought that I would post a scan on this forum.

Anyone interested in joining the MVPA-HA can do so at the following link

www.MVPA.org/join

[David Dunlop]

Interesting read, Ed. Thanks for posting.


David

[Mike Kelly]

Depends on what era and your specific interest. Is the vehicle going to be driven on public roads or trailered to events ? Yes, it is a commendable way of presenting a ex-military vehicle. But in my experience, these 'barn find' originals (WW2 era) that are found in good enough shape to do a basic clean up and drive around, are extremely scarce.

Going back to the 1970s, only 30 years after WW2 ended, nearly all of the vehicles I came across were more or less incomplete 'wrecks'. A few owners did make an effort to look after the vehicles but that was not a common experience.

Just a few short years after being disposed in the early 70s, some of the Studebaker US6 trucks looked like they had been raced in a demolition derby.

It still is possible to buy a more recent type, something like a ex-army Land Rover or Mog and drive it around.

[maple_leaf_eh]

JUE477 The first production Land Rover ever made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWCTmyOFKik

[Ganmain Tony]

Fantastic presentation by Richard Hammond.
Always enjoy his stuff.
Thanks for sharing that Terry

[Mike Cecil]

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and voice one of my pet-peeves when it comes to MV restorations. Many really nicely finished vehicles I've seen over the years fall down when it comes to an authentic set of markings. I've seen telephone numbers as registration numbers on a jeep (the owner confirmed it!), and a hodge-podge of AIF, and AMF markings co-mingled, let alone the ones that pop up as pure fantasy. Sure, the 'barn find' MV is a gem, but there are precious few of those, and most go down the restoration path, spending considerable time, effort and money to bring a vehicle back to near factory fresh. But then apply a set of spurious markings.

Markings are not rocket science, and there is plenty of information around if you care to look for it, in addition to the various enthusiasts that can provide additional advice.

Duck .... incoming!

Mike

[Ed Storey]

I agree, that I am let down by spurious paint jobs, fictitious markings and loads of unrelated junk hanging or tied to restored vehicles with the owner telling an uninformed public how authentic the vehicle is. It has taken me 40 years, but I have finally been able to just let it go as the vehicles are not mine and the owner can do what he likes.

Sadly museums, who should know better, are some of the worst offenders when it comes to making up markings and camouflage paint jobs to suit their agendas or the whims of their staff. I firmly believe it is their hap-hazard approach to preserving military vehicles that prompts the collector to adapt the same restoration principles.

I will grab my helmet as well and await the incoming.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

... I've seen telephone numbers as registration numbers on a jeep (the owner confirmed it!), and a hodge-podge of AIF, and AMF markings co-mingled, let alone the ones that pop up as pure fantasy. Sure, the 'barn find' MV is a gem, but there are precious few of those, and most go down the restoration path, spending considerable time, effort and money to bring a vehicle back to near factory fresh. But then apply a set of spurious markings.

...

I asked a British Gulf War collector that question. His four Rapier AA missiles had the same serial number, marked "SERIAL #". He said it was the birthday of the fellow who'd helped him with all the restoration.

Not mine, but it did prompt an engagement over the piece and its return from the grave. Maybe that served better than a perfect set of correct numbers. I say that because reading my nearby base's Ammunition Orders, they require empty containers to have the original contents markings cancelled. Spray paint is the easiest way. Horrible on the supply of unique or appropriate boxes for the future, but in the Ammo Compound it keeps their work simpler today and next week.

[KevinHann]

A really interesting read and as a a classic car owner aswel its something I come across on other forums.

We have a car, a 1937 Hillman 80 Limousine as used by Whitehall as official transport during the war. She is original, she carried her scars of a long life well. Yes the headlining is dirty and ripped in places, yes there are scratches and areas of dull paint and some tears in the leather....

But, we chose to preserve her not restore her. Mechanically we carry out regular checks and undertake work where necessary. Once the patina is gone it can never be 'restored' back into a vehicle.

Our trucks are different, they have required major restoration work. Its about understanding when and which course of action is required.

[Bruce MacMillan]

These thoughts apply to other areas of military collecting. Wireless sets is one of them. After the war radios were so cheap tons were bought for parts or modded by ham operators. Nobody wanted to sit and watch dust collect on that cool tank radio. I still have a few untouched originals but not because I saw the value of preservation rather I had so many I couldn't get to them all.

[KevinHann]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and voice one of my per-peeves when it comes to MV restorations. Many really nicely finished vehicles I've seen over the years fall down when it comes to an authentic set of markings. I've seen telephone numbers as registration numbers on a jeep (the owner confirmed it!), and a hodge-podge of AIF, and AMF markings co-mingled, let alone the ones that pop up as pure fantasy. Sure, the 'barn find' MV is a gem, but there are precious few of those, and most go down the restoration path, spending considerable time, effort and money to bring a vehicle back to near factory fresh. But then apply a set of spurious markings.

Markings are not rocket science, and there is plenty of information around if you care to look for it, in addition to the various enthusiasts that can provide additional advice.

Duck .... incoming!

Mike

I think its a difficult one, people will always have different opinions. When restoring our 42 Commer I spent plenty of time researching colours and markings etc for it when it would have been delivered. I found a very good mid war period SCC2 colour matched paint through the advice of another forum member and sourced a Brown canvas to suit it.
Since she was finished at the start of the summer we've been to shows and as usual photos have made it on to the internet.
You will not believe the amount of criticism that we've received since, even from other owners and self confessed authorities on MV's. The usual comment 'trucks were never painted Brown during the war'....Seriously????

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by KevinHann

I think its a difficult one, people will always have different opinions. When restoring our 42 Commer I spent plenty of time researching colours and markings etc for it when it would have been delivered. I found a very good mid war period SCC2 colour matched paint through the advice of another forum member and sourced a Brown canvas to suit it.
Since she was finished at the start of the summer we've been to shows and as usual photos have made it on to the internet.
You will not believe the amount of criticism that we've received since, even from other owners and self confessed authorities on MV's. The usual comment 'trucks were never painted Brown during the war'....Seriously????

The point is that you did the research and can prove the paint colour you applied to your restored vehicle. It is the owners of spuriously painted and marked vehicles who cannot provide any proof which is frustrating.

[KevinHann]

Yes, I agree with that. It is frustrating.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by KevinHann

I think its a difficult one, people will always have different opinions. .....
You will not believe the amount of criticism that we've received since, even from other owners and self confessed authorities on MV's. The usual comment 'trucks were never painted Brown during the war'....Seriously????

I am slightly guilty of that reaction whenever I see restored wartime Jeeps with a length of manilla rope around the bumper. One B&W photo of one vehicle in one unit doesn't make something universal.

Similarly, just because the modern M151A2 checklist includes 300-lbs of authorized accessories, doesn't mean the modern owner has to display each of them. Specifically, I mean the side curtain nets. They look like a clown car! Very few vehicles I've signed out had the absolute complete kit checklist.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

I am slightly guilty of that reaction whenever I see restored wartime Jeeps with a length of manilla rope around the bumper. One B&W photo of one vehicle in one unit doesn't make something universal.

Yeah, finding period photographs of Canadian Jeeps, of any era, with manilla rope around the bumper are a challenge to locate. Hats off to anyone who can display their vehicle with all of the EIS, but I can understand just how difficult and expensive it is to find all of the various items. Even keeping track of that stuff when they were in military service was almost a full time job.

[Robin Craig]

This subject makes me spin and then vibrate ......

[Ed Williamson]

In many years of Service and collecting and fixing I have found many things on Military vehicles that were not so called STOCK but were period correct MODS that were done in the field to make the unit more useful or fix an issue that popped up. ( Wire cutter on Jeeps or Hedgerow penitraters on Tanks for Eg.)Sometimes correct parts were not avail. so something was fabbed up or made to fit. I am more than happy to leave these as is when using or showing the unit. Just my opinion and worth just what you paid for it.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Ed Williamson

In many years of Service and collecting and fixing I have found many things on Military vehicles that were not so called STOCK but were period correct MODS that were done in the field to make the unit more useful or fix an issue that popped up. ( Wire cutter on Jeeps or Hedgerow penitraters on Tanks for Eg.)Sometimes correct parts were not avail. so something was fabbed up or made to fit. I am more than happy to leave these as is when using or showing the unit. Just my opinion and worth just what you paid for it.

Modifications are nice, but I have found that documentation or photographs are the key to substantuating claims concerning what was or was not modified on a vehicle.