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#1
03-03-04, 07:02
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AIF vehicles to the Middle East
Hi guys
In the short time that I have been following this forum a number of questions concerning the provision of carriers and B vehicles have been raised and debated. This has raised my own curiosity and prompted me to look in the files at Australian Archives here in Canberra. On the whole these are not Army files, but files from the Prime Minister Department who had an overall co-ordinating role. My initial findings are: In the early war period all exchange of goods, vehicles, munitions etc was on a payment basis. For goods etc purchased from within the Commonwealth payments were centralised in London. It is probably worth noting that while Australia was an importer of certain vehicles and munitions, it was an exporter of agricultural produce and textiles. With regard to vehicles, what could be purchased locally was done so and what could not be provided from Australia was then purchased from a Commonwealth ‘pool’. Purchases from the US were initially on a country to company basis, but then the US Government required Commonwealth purchases to occur through the British Purchasing Commission. This seems to be the sytem that existed pre-lend lease. A feature of many of the files are the various Cabinet funding submissions for the purchase of munitions / vehicles which includes large A3 sized tables itemising each individual vehicle type to be purchased, the number required, their unit cost and total cost. An example of this is the fitting out of 1 Aust Corps to go to the Middle East in 1940. The attached table contains a complete breakdown of vehicles for each Division and Corps troops. Although the tables were optimistic and were regularly amended due to things such as British changes to unit Wes, with they subsequent changes to vehicle requirements they do give a good example of the financial focus of the Government A report by General Blamey was very critical of the non WD pattern vehicles in Australian service in the ME. His main criticism was that they were not as durable as the WD pattern machines. Another report notes that the AIF lost approximately 2200 vehicles in Greece. This must have placed a considerable strain on vehicle replacement pools. Another file table notes all the vehicles shipped from Australia to the Middle East and is dated some time in late 1940. I still need to copy this but will endeavour to post its contents. The one number I remember is that 50 Aust pattern carriers were recorded on the report. Interestingly, the Port Detachment, Base Ordnance Workshop diary held by AWM notes additional deliveries of LP Pattern carriers in late 1941. It even states that some of these are LP 2As. I apologise in advance for the rambling nature. I will endeavour to post file references etc later. For your edification… more to follow. Shane 
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#2
03-03-04, 08:49
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Wool...
Shane you may or may not know that the Brtish acquired all available Australian wool:
'.The Principal Supply Officers’ Committee of the Committee of Imperial Defence [which had direct contacts with Principal Supply Officers or equivalent in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and no doubt South Africa] tried to pilot through the 1937 Imperial Conference an agreement with Canada concerning wartime supplies of bauxite [aluminium ore] and aluminium itself. The Conference pronounced against any commitments in peacetime for the supply of raw materials in war . However, the plan was not abandoned, and on July 1938 the C.I.D. itself revived the proposals and in the autumn of 1938 the Board of Trade entered into negotiations with Empire producers for the bulk purchase of a number of commodities, initially lead, zinc and wool. The contract for the purchase of the entire wool clip of Australia and New Zealand was finally concluded in October 1939. The Ministry of Supply was established in August 1939, and the Ministry then immediately established the Raw Materials Department, which was then subjected to diktats from the War Cabinet’s Materials Priority Sub-Committee by the end of October 1939. Wool, aluminium and bauxite were treated as ‘essential’ commodities amongst others, and subjected to statutory controls of licensing, purchase and distribution as part of the first war legislation passed. However, allocations of wool did not start in the U.K. until March 1940 , reflecting delays in collecting the orders, shipping them to the U.K., and then storage. Given the extreme priority given by Whitehall to the acquisition of wool for uniforms, coats, blankets, etc., and the acceptance of sterling in Australasia, as well as maintenance of exports in reverse trade, there would have been no wool to exchange with Germany from 1938 to some time after cessation of hostilities even if the war had ended in the autumn of 1940..' This is an extract from a text that I have published. Basically Australia and NZ were prepared to accept Pounds Sterling for the essential wool. However my guess is that with the equippage of the AIF, NZEF, and [re cotton] Indian Army for the Mid-East some sort of barter deal was done by way of vehicles for wool/cotton which was valued in Sterling, just as General Motors handled all inter-corporation sales in US Dollars through New York. If you can find definitive evidence of sales of vehicles for wool or hard evidence as to how the 'pool' worked with regard to vehicles I shall be eternally grateful. I may have to re-write my PhD thesis...that's why it is so important to me at least. ADDED: may I ask for detials of the PM's Files references please to quote as authority? Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 03-03-04 at 09:04.
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#3
03-03-04, 09:11
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First Australian CMPs
Writing from memory, Canadian Archives files show that the first expression of interest in Canadial military vehicles from Australia was in 1938. However Australia then officially enquired of Canada for 1,900 DND-pattern 4 x 4 trucks in spring 1940. I believe that the first Australian orders, i.e. cash purchases by the Australian Government were actually placed in 1941: probably around June. Until then I suggest that Australian supply was by way of diverted British M of S orders as already discussed.
'It is not known as yet when the first Australian-order Canadian Military Pattern trucks were ordered, although there were Ministry of Supply orders for both Chevrolets and Fords for Australia, including diverted orders for Singapore. G.M.-Holden’s Woodville Plant figures show that over 5,000 military cabs were produced for Australian forces in 1941. Further, it would appear that the earliest Australian-built cabs on C.M.P. chassis were the No. 12 Cabs, which used minor quantities of timber, thought succeeding type No. 13 used all-steel . We do know, however, that Woodville Plant commenced engineering in September 1941 when the first parcel of information was received from G.M. of Canada. No doubt Ford’s Geelong Plant undertook similar work at about the same time'.
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#4
04-03-04, 03:22
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David
Had another look today. You may find the following interesting. 703/1 Eastern Group Supply Council Administration etc – Mix cablegrams regarding general requirements of members of Group From Assistant Secretary (Finance ) to Assistant Secretary (Supplies) dated 24/12/41 Financial Adjustments in respect of supplies from Australia through the Eastern Supply Group Council 1) Basis of adjustment for supplies from Australia through the Eastern Supply Group Council The procedure contemplated in respect to all supplies, whether for the AIF abroad or for the forces of other parts of the Empire, is that settlement will be effected in Sterling in London by the UK Ministry of Supply. The supplying country will be responsible for sending the necessary advices to it representative in London to enable settlement to be made. The document goes on to quote from Secretary of State Dominion Affairs letter dated 15/10/1941 Payment and recovery The Ministry (of Supply) will be charged in the first instance with the cost of all supply orders. The Ministry will recover from the consignee member concerned the cost of goods supplied in accordance with issue orders. War Office will adjust separately with members for the provisions made available to members forces in Mid East, East Africa and Malaya. cheers Shane
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#5
04-03-04, 08:09
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Bingo?
Shane, you may have found the basis for the payment system! It would appear that S/M orders from Canada say were paid for by the Ministry of Supply to the High Commission in London, and then if the orders were consigned to Australia, say again, then the Australian High Commission paid the M of S in Sterling. However what the papers do not say is that Canada had to be paid in Dollars. May I ask for an official reference please from the Archives for my records? You may a first class researcher and I am truly indebted for your work.
ADDED: after a cup of tea I had time to take in all this new information. The first thought is that Canada was paid in Dollars as was the US for cash purchases, before Defence Aid and Lend-Lease. Now, those Dollars had to be conjured out of the Treasury's coffers, which I have investigated. Apart from the huge grant, and loans that Canada made to the UK to in effect purchase goods and more importantly foodstuffs from Canada, there were also tthe essential sales of vehicles etc. to Canadian forces in the U.K. Thus can I say to all MLU readers that this information amplifies my earlier postings that the War Office tried to sell British trucks to equip the 1st Canadian Division when first landed, and after Dunkirk kept trying to supply just as the CMDs were busy assembling new DND-pattern [CMP] trucks. Then of course as you all now the W.O. clamoured for every available vehicle from Canada including asking for preference over Canadian supply also post-Dunkirk. This was ostensibly for the Z + 27 programme for the invasion of Europe in December 1941 to spring 1942. However the Mid-East crisis and then the invasion of Greece intervened. The information from Shane would seem to confirm that [assuming the NZ and Indian Governments applied the same systems], the British Government consisting of War office, M. of Supply, Treasury et al were only too happy to 'sell'/issue/lend vehicles to the AIF, NZEF and IA in the Mid-East because ultimately there was a settlement in Sterling in London which could be converted to Dollars or more correctly used to purchase vehicles and supplies to 'sell' to Canada! My query therefore rests on whether the British W.O. markings not only assisted with ordering of spare parts to Contract, but also marked them as purchased from the W.O.? Until the arrangements that Shane listed above were implemented perhaops the vehicles had to carry British W.O. numbers until such time as they were paid for. The census numbers were then used as an i.d. for accounting purposes. I shall have to rewrite my texts now in the light of this startling new evidence that seemingly fits in with what we already know. Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 04-03-04 at 08:31.
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#6
12-03-04, 01:16
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Attn David Hayward - follow up comments
Dear David
Sorry for not following on with our previous discussion regarding the financial system for equipment purchase and allocation. I have been out of town on leave. In your final comments you raised the issue of whether WD Nos had the function of identifying vehicles purchased from the WO. My personal opinion is that this is not the case. I have seen no evidence to support your theory, which doesn’t mean that it is wrong, rather that we haven’t found any evidence, if it still exists. Rather, I tend to believe that if applied, your system would be highly rigid and require considerable co-ordination between the high level finance system all the way down to the end users. However, when you look at what was happening regarding allocations to theatres and issues to down to unit level the picture is chaotic at the least. At the unit level I am basing my comments on various Australian unit experiences in the Middle East noted in their war diaries The other question I have about your theory is what time period do you think this applied to? I would suggest that it certainly doesn’t apply post British Purchasing Commission. Cheers Shane
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#7
12-03-04, 08:15
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Interesting point
Shane, good point. All I can say is that the allocation and then retention of WD numbers continued until say 1941 at which point a new system prevailed...from studies as regards soft-skins to a certain contract Demand # and perhaps no more. I will look up my Chevrolet contracts but I have a shrewd idea at about which point the system may have stopped. Basically I think the system changed from allocation and then sale of vehicles and parts to Commonwealth countries to a new system which mean that each countries allocated their own numbers simply because the purchasing system had gone onto a new basis with Defence Aid coming in and then Lend-Lease [that allowed US supplies of Canadian vehicles for example].
The WD number of course simplified parts ordering but I suspect that the system changed at the cut-off to ordering by Demand number.
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#8
12-03-04, 12:06
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Please read this discussion piece everyone
Quote:
On the face of it priority was required post-Dunkirk because so many thousands of British-supplied vehicles were lost. However I have never been 1000% satisfied that this was the case because of British indiffeerence at highest echelons to Canadian supply. I have never got my teeth around this sudden volte-face until now. I have to say it is thanks to MLU that we found cast iron evidence of WD-numbered CMPs [sorry, although they were 'DND-pattern' officially I cannot use that term!] in Australia. They proved through their census numbers to have been in the early S/M 20XX Demand [Contracts] i.e. 2002- to 2005 that comprised thousands of CMPs. And yet how come they ended up in Australia? We now know the answer, namely that they were issued to the AIF in the Mid-East, along with the NZEF and Indian Army in either very late 1940 or early 1941..I favour the latter as S/M 2002 C15 Fords were being assembled in Alexandria in January 1941. We also know that the British War Office through the Ministry of Supply purchased Canadian-owned CMPs that had been assembled in England for the Canadian 1 or 2 Divisions. They then got shipped off to the Mid-east, as did I believe did some Canadian-order CMPs that were diverted from England to the Mid-east with payment made in London. The reason for the priority requests and also stepping up of production in Windsor & Oshawa in September 1940 was because Churchill had stamped on the War Cabinet and thus the whole of Whitehall: War Office, Ministry of Supply, Treasury, et al, even whilst the Battle of Britain was raging that the Mid-east was to be be given priority. At least initially, as at the same time the British records show that there was a demand to increase vehicle production and acquisition from North America for the 'Z+27' programme which was for the number of divisions that would be required by December 1941 and then spring 1942 for the invasion of the Continent. Of course the Greek campaign intervened as we know. Anyhow, as part of the 'Z+27' there was a realisation that supply from North America was required and that included from the USA. As you all know after the CMP Contracts there were a series of acqusitions for US off-the-shelf trucks that were also shipped to the Mid-east, and then various diverted French contracts for Chevrolet and GMC trucks although the latter seem to have remained in the UK. As to possibly the last WD-numbered trucks that were supplied to the AIF, etc. I am suggesting Demand S/M 2037 which was for 4 x 2 and 4 x 4 3-ton Chevrolets and Fords. The turning-point may have been the next Demand placed, S/M 2104 ..S/M 2104 was submitted 2 JULY 1941 to Canada and comprised 10,000 3-ton Lorries 'similar to S/M 2019 Ford and Chevrolet' with 10.50 x 20 General Purpose tyres, CKD for assembly in India and South Africa. However the detsinations must have changed subsequently: 150 UNITS DESTINED FOR SINGAPORE 145 FOR AUSTRALIA CUMULATIVE PRODUCTION AT 30 JUNE 1942: 9,641 [FOR EGYPT] 9,695 BY OCTOBER 1942 We know that S/M 2127 [#12 Cab 60S] was for Australia, with local Holden assembly and by then the numbers would have been locally-applied. I maintain that the WD-style numbering was for 'ownership' indications originally and then for sprare parts identification subsequently. I have been contemplating whether as I think I said before that the WD census numbers were applied and remained until the question of 'payment' was resolved, which must have been from sometime in 1941. I would like to know if there is any evidence of Australian # 11 and #12 Cabs being allocated new Australian census numbers at some stage but the fact that some clearly retained their numbers into demob suggests that the numbers were permanent in some cases. I take the attitude at the moment that the Mid-east Commonwealth forces received British-owned trucks and armoured vehicles on the basis that the question of payment/transfer of title would be resolved subsequently.
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#9
12-03-04, 12:31
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Earliest S/M Demands
S/M 2002
S/M 2003 S/M 2004 S/M 2005 S/M 2006 Above: all Canadian Ford and/or Chevrolet CMP/MCP then: S/M 2007: WHITE MODEL 922 EX-FRENCH S/M 2008: GMC ACK-353 EX-FRENCH S/M 2009: GMC ACKWX-353 EX-FRENCH S/M 2010: GMC ACK-504 EX-FRENCH S/M 2011: CHEVROLET YR HOULDER THORNTON 6 X 4 EX-FRENCH S/M 2012: DODGE T-203B EX-FRENCH S/M 2013: ? S/M 2014: WHITE 760/MACK EXBX EX-FRENCH S/M 2015: ? S/M 2016: GMC AFWX-354 6 X 4 EX-FRENCH & CHEVROLET C15 S/M 2017: DODGE T-214-L EX-FRENCH S/M 2018: FWD S/M 2019: FORD & CHEVROLET S/M 2020: CHEVROLET C-GT & FORD F-GT S/M 2013 and 2015 could have been Mid-East deliveries but I have no evidence yet as to what they were... ADDED: AUSTRALIAN PURCHASES I just found this information relating to the first Australian ordered CMPs CD AGAINST AN SM2019 FOR A SINGLE CHEVROLET 3 TON TRUCK, AND ONE FORD COMPLETE TRUCK, 1 CAB/CHASSIS, AND 895 TRUCKS WITHOUT BODIES. IT ALSO INCLUDED A SINGLE BODY FROM THE CANADIAN TOP AND BODY COMPANY, FOR AUSTRALIA S/M 2029:OUT OF THIS WAS A CD FOR AUSTRALIA SUB-CONTRACT: 1 ONLY CAB # 12 4X2 WITH SHORT BOX BODY; CD E 2251. THE COST OF THE CHEVROLET TRUCK WAS LISTED AS $816.00.[
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#10
17-03-04, 03:26
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David
I have found a number of documents explaining the transfer of supplies to Australia. Drop me a line at shane.lovell@deh.gov.au and let me know your snail mail address. Shane
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#11
17-03-04, 08:03
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Address
I have e mailed you direct Shane, but in case anyone else wants to contact, my address as given out before is:
DAVID HAYWARD FAIRVIEW THE DROVE LOWER COMMON ROAD WEST WELLOW ROMSEY HAMPSHIRE SO51 6BT UNITED KINGDOM
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#12
17-03-04, 08:07
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Supply-Mechanical Demands
Having just listed S/M 2002 to 2020 I might have a go in due course at compiling a definitive listing from 2002 - 4000 and 6001 to 6999, covering soft-skins..I think the 1001 + series were armoured and 5001 + were for spare parts and components.
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#13
18-03-04, 02:49
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S/M2003
David I have a 12 cab Ford at home in Australia that has the number 2003 stenciled under the bonnet on the righthand foot well top. Sanding back the paint my Aussie number is 44637. This is listed in the Aussie war memorial army registration record as a 3 ton GS body 20 inch wheels. However the Aussie number is directly above the front guards both sides a second number did exist on the top next to the bonnet, all I can find is "5" at the fist digit posistion all else is lost.
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#14
18-03-04, 08:36
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S/M 2003
Mark, I am indebted. S/M 2003 was for F30 trucks including 1200 for Egypt and 300 for Mombasa. Known WD numbers are
L 4405xx? to L 4406xx? E.g. L 4406114 as in Wheels & Tracks Issue 49 This would seem to prove that at some stage the Ministry of Supply transferred ownership to the Australian War Office, and then numbering caught up with paperwork or vice versa!
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#15
19-03-04, 04:28
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cab 11
David, rember the cab 11 (C 30) we have here has two sets of numbers. One is a british number and the other was alocated to the truck when it came to Australia.Keith would have photos on his site of the cab 11.
Max
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#16
10-07-23, 12:39
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GMC ACKWX-353 in use with the British Army
Quote:
Source: https://youtu.be/Zmc7u9Es6Xg
__________________
Regards, Hanno --------------------------
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#17
10-07-23, 15:48
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Correlation?
From two earlier posts (above): "David I have a 12 cab Ford at home in Australia that has the number 2003 stenciled under the bonnet on the righthand foot well top. Sanding back the paint my Aussie number is 44637. This is listed in the Aussie war memorial army registration record as a 3 ton GS body 20 inch wheels. However the Aussie number is directly above the front guards both sides a second number did exist on the top next to the bonnet, all I can find is "5" at the fist digit posistion all else is lost.
"Mark, I am indebted. S/M 2003 was for F30 trucks including 1200 for Egypt and 300 for Mombasa. Known WD numbers are L 4405xx? to L 4406xx? E.g. L 4406114 as in Wheels & Tracks Issue 49:" I cannot see how these two statements align: Mark's truck is an F60L, while according to David, SM2003 was for F30 trucks. In addition, Mark has said the first position of the largely obliterated reg number is '5', whereas under SM2003's WD listing, it would be at least in the fifth position, the first position being an 'L'. AWM126 lists ARN 44637 as one of the UK Order 886 trucks, which were all new F60Ls delivered directly from Canada to various Australian ports for assembly in Ford plants. In the case of ARN 44637, the place taken on charge is '5', ie 5th Military District, which was West Australia, so the truck was assembled in Perth. I cannot account for the '2003' under the bonnet, except in all instances I've seen where the SM number appears, it is preceeded by the letters 'SM' which does not appear to be the case with Mark's truck. The earliest Australian orders for CMP trucks lodged via the BPC (which came into existence at the beginning of 1940) appear to be Australian Contract Demands issued against SM2019. As for the registration commencing with '5', it would be interesting to know if the truck started life as a 2-pdr portee and was later converted to GS, as many were. Mike
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