Axle break

[Keith Webb]

Ever had the experience of breaking a rear axle, discovering it has broken in the diff meaning lots of hard work to replace it?

Recently I was working on the brakes on the C60S and when I was cleaning the axle prior to replacing it I found it had an interesting break - well it still worked but wouldn't have for much longer.

Have you seen one break like this before?




It looks like there might have been a fault with the steel. It still transmitted power of course but must have had a bit of spring in it!

[Tony Smith]

Looks like it would have broken into two neat semi-circular sections! This would'nt have happened if you'd stuck to Fords, Keith. Well, if it did, at least it would have still have been covered by warranty.

[Phil Waterman]

Hate to see what that would look like if it broke while driving down the road. The service bulletins show sever different ways to extract broke axles for the housing. Which depending on where it breaks. Could be real interesting if it breaks in the middle of the shaft making it impossible to pull the differential out of the housing.

[Pete Ashby]

Never seen anything like that Keith,

odd because the force exerted by the load usual ends up screwing the drive shaft off.

I agree with you, this one looks like a longitudinal fault crack. Digging out my basic metallurgy text books it looks like a fault during the forging as a result of differential cooling and or incorrect iron/carbon ratios, basically a bad batch !.

Just as a point of interest, my Father was LAD REME, I remember one of his stories during the Italian campaign was at one point in the winter on 1944 they had a rash of Chevs with broken half shafts, what date was your C60S?

Pete

[Keith Webb]

Hi Pete

Interesting, isn't it.

It is a 44 model, but has been rebuilt so it may not be the original rear end.

Interesting story about the fash of failures. This one is the short half shaft.

[Bob Carriere]

Phil

Since you have worked on both Cab 13 and Hups.... what is the size difference between the inside axles......

Having just disassembled my C15a cab 11 axles I find the shafts really massive....... are the HUP axle shafts even bigger????


Could a cab 13 axle shaft be machined down to substitute for a Hup axle?????

We have a small rural machine shop in the village here that specializes in rebuilding the wear surfaces on the outside and inside of large...nay huge hydraulic cylinders.... he has an automated machine that slowly revolves and weld on a thick layer of very hard alloy which he then grinds, machines and polishes to a mirror finish.... could that welded on metal be built up, machined and cut into splines on the end of a shaft????

Not sure if he is open on Saturday but I am going to try to see him tomorrow. Bottom line if such a process exists here, similar shops must have it in NH.

Will be working inside the barn tomorrow dodging rain showers and trying to ID all my various axle seals for re-ordering.

Any suggestions on part numbers for the seals.... so far the rear axle is all apart and none of the seals have any part numbers.... although I was insulted that all the brake linings were scripted
"Ford of Canada"..... in a Chev no less....tsk tsk tsk...

Bob C.

[Phil Waterman]

Bob - I have drawings of both HUP and Pattern 12 C60L axles which I will convert from cad to jpg. and post.

Also I have a seal numbers for the C60 which I will assemble and post.

Yes the brakes on the C60L Pattern 12 are all Ford parts, as well as C60S Pattern 13 except for the master cyclinders which are all Chevy. The HUP has Ford brakes on the front and Chevy on the rear.

Friday I got the shop drawings for the new axle shaft for the HUP and they say I should have a new axle in two weeks. Now we just need to find some way of having the long shafts made at a reasonable cost.

[Bob Carriere]

On Saturday Rob brought his rear HUP axle.... short one... has a nice 10 degree twist in the spline exactly where it exits the axle cage.

Seems that the steel must have been of poor quality or badly hardened.... read too soft and it twisted. Rob also mentioned that the rear cross member on his HUP was badly bent from pulling too hard... on stumps maybe.....

Anyways, we went ot the machine shop down the road for advice.
Having compared the over size of the Cab 13 rear axle we wondered if a HUP axle could be cut form the Cab 13.

Basically it could..... he explained that the cutting of spline is a very time consuming process..... at least 3 cuts need to be made... one on each side and then down the middle.... and being carefull you usually have to repeat the 3 cut process to make sure you do not remove too much steel on the first pass.

Of course using a cab 13 axle would also need machining the end cap to look like a Hup axle and allow the lift flange to be bolted on.

His final advice, after we told him the age of the truck and based on using the truck primarily for parades and the odd Sunday outings...... "I tell you based on my 25 years in the business it lasted this long and twisted this much with out breaking it wont break with reasonable driving......

Which made both Rob and I wonder how Phil has been driving.....hahaha......

Phil... where and how did your rear axle break..?? was it near the spline section??? there as been too many breaks in HUP axles considering the size of the vehicle......

Anyways for the time being having a new one made for $1200 dollars is prohibitive...... running the old one is tempting.

As anyone broken Cab 13 massive axles.... shoret or long ones?

Bob C.

[Phil Waterman]

Both time I broke axles in my HUP it was pulling away from a stop sign one at the north end of the road we live off and the other at the south end of same road. In both cases less than two miles from the house recovery was simple shift into four wheel drive and drive home on the front axle.

Both axles broke 3/4 of inch in from where the spines starts.

Now having said that I will admit that since 1978 I have driven the HUP hard. Trail rides in hard country have been the usual though I don’t thrash the truck of road I just let the low gearing do its thing. In almost every case any place a jeep could go I could follow just slower. Last summer I lead a trail ride where many of the vehicles got stuck but not the HUP.

I think my only concern about breaking a rear axle would be driving it home over the road on the front axles and keeping the speed down.

[Bob Carriere]

That intersection must have some strange magnetic field that weakens rear axles.

Sounds like the same thing on Rob's truck axle.... about 3/4 inch from the star of the splines... which seems to be the point where it enters the spilne part of the axle cage...... his axle is like a soft piece of steel..... gently twisting like a lead pipe. Must have been a bad batch of axles late in the war (45).

Will try to get a picture from Rob axle.

When you took out the broken axle out... at the break... was the metal heavily crystalized..... like fine salt... or a tearing break with many jagged end?????

Sounds like you are getting a new one made...... brands new.... was it expensive????

I will try to be light footed on my cab11........

Keep me posted on the axle seal situation....

Bob C.

[Lynn Eades]

Keith, Have seen Wagner log stacker axles with a crack from one end to the other. Big (about 3inch dia.) and long.-Big loads!

[Rod Diery]

Originally posted by Phil Waterman
Trail rides in hard country have been the usual though I don’t thrash the truck of road I just let the low gearing do its thing. In almost every case any place a jeep could go I could follow just slower. Last summer I lead a trail ride where many of the vehicles got stuck but not the HUP.

Phil, Great to hear that someone else believes that just because our trucks are old and that we love them dearly, they should still be used for off road purposes for which they were intended. I personally believe that using them is a far better way of preserving them than having them sit in the garage and only get used on a couple of Sundays per year.

Any chance of you posting some pics of the HUP on the trail?

Cheers
Rod

[jim sewell]

An alternative to torque breaking rear axles is loose or out of adjustment side bearings in the differential .
Under power ( torque ) the carrier unit will shift out of alignment with the axles and try to bend them while they are turning .

While the diff centre is out for the axle replacement it may be worth going through the side bearing and backlash adjustment .

Also as you would be aware driving with a broken axle and not disconnecting the tailshaft and axle shafts increases the chance of picking up broken axle pieces and which may become wedged between gears thus damaging the gears in the differential.

Regards
Jim S.

[Phil Waterman]

Jim - Good point Jim about driving/self-recovery when rear axle breaks. It depends a lot on where the axle decides to break if in snaps mid shaft little metal will end up in the differential oil. If they break as many do right in the spines then a large amount of steel fragments are being dumped right in middle of every thing. When I drain my axle after the break I drained it through a paint strainer with a magnet in the funnel. What I ended up with was ugly lots of small steel fragments and steel fur on the magnet.

Complete disassembly of the differential however showed no damage to bearings or gears.

I agree that had if a long drive on the other axle is required, removing both axles and drive shaft would be desireable.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

What have you been using for gasket material on your axles???

I seem to have cork on the cover and some very thin paper on the gear cluster.

What is your advice..... knowing that we will have to cut our own.
Various paper thicknesses are available...any advice... same for cork.

Do you use any sealant on the gaskets....?

Thanks in advance....

Bob C.

[Phil Waterman]

Gasket Material

Gasket material as sheet stock has gotten hard to find in this day of silicon-based sealants, particularly finding sheets that are large enough to make one-piece gaskets for things like differential housings. Over the years I picked up a stock of sheet stuff at flee markets but just as with NOS gasket sets the cork gasket material does tend to dry out and change size.

What I have been using is high grade printing stock paper from local print shop. Have used tag stock as used in manila folders this is what I use to print small gaskets from computer. For the larger stuff 24x36 using high fiber or rag content print paper like they print wedding invitations on. Walked into a printing shop with a micrometer and asked to see their sample book, then proceeded to check the thickness of the various weights of paper. In the end the guy sold me like 20 sheets each of a couple of different thicknesses real cheep around ten bucks.

I then cut out the gaskets and spray them with Permatex Spray Gasket (item 80065) which is meant to seal cut gaskets, and to make them sticky so that they stay in place while being assembled.

[Bob Carriere]

I will have to visit the print shop where I work... they have very expensive heavy stock for maps and posters...... not to mention raiding the supply cabinet for heavy brown file folders.

I have had good success with heavy craft paper.... coating one side at a time with silicon... let it dry... then cut to size... they hold up well.

Canadian Tires store in Ottawa still carry rolls of various thickness paper gasket material.... I better stock up. I found a good supply of gasket material at old gas engine and steam shows.... including asbestos material..... usually old stock or the left over after someone has cut out a huge gasket. For example I got a center cut out about 4 foot across... a cloth neoprene material highly resistant to fuel/oil etc....

Princess Auto still carries cork... but nothing thinner than 1/16 and yes you almost have to steam it or soak in hot water before you can safely handle it.

How critical is the thickness of the stock material..... assuming thickness would not affect gear spacing as in our case...??

Bob C.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

BOB
In Ottawa you can get any kind of gasket material you want at Hydrasilicate Gaskets..Innes Rd and Bantree..Blue and White building You have driven by it a zillion times..Best gasket place in Canada..
They can make any pump or seal or gasket you can think of..
Didn't see you tonight down at the River..The carriers and crew have arrived from the south...Fitton..Baker...Loy...the lot..
There are DUKW's..CMP's..armour..M4A2...a Greyhound..just what I remember..
And they are having a fine time..
To bad I'm leaving for TO in the morning for the weekend...GRRRRRRRrrrrrr!!!
RATZ!!!!!!

[Bob Carriere]

I intend to drop by early Saturday and see the size of the hangovers......

Thanks on the tip for the gaskets.....

Cheers

Bob C.