Canada Invaded!

[RHClarke]

Our neighbours to the south (USA - for you Ontario high school grads) announced that one of their nuke subs had just transversed the Northwest Passage submerged. This was done without asking permission from the Canadian government.

Our PM, PM, warned off our US friends by saying "The passage in the Arctic is Canadian sovereign waters..." (translation: We can't do a flippin thing about it except whine...). That ought to keep them out from now on...

Thanks to the Liberals, not only are we being invaded by the Danes, but now the Americans are in the act...Who's next?

[Ponysoldier]

Thanks for bring that up. What you call it, is what it is.
Do you happen to know what type of boat its was?
I havnt heard this,and dont doubt it happen.If you
can find out what kind of boat it is I'll look for more
information.
With all the cr-- happening down here one would
think some one would be watching for something like
this...
Patrick

[RHClarke]

The Charlotte didn't fly to the pole...

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/disp...story_id=21223

USS Charlotte Achieves Milestone During Under-Ice Transit
Story Number: NNS051201-11
Release Date: 12/1/2005 5:02:00 PM



By Lt. j.g. Dave Ozeck, Commander, Submarine Force, U.S. Atlantic Fleet Public Affairs

NORTH ATLANTIC OCEAN (NNS) -- The improved-Los Angeles-class fast attack submarine USS Charlotte (SSN 766) arrived in Norfolk, Va., Nov. 29, following an historic transit that began in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and took the boat under the arctic ice cap.

During the transit, Charlotte surfaced at the North Pole, ascending through 61 inches of ice - a record for a Los Angeles-class submarine.

Upon reaching the Pole, the boat commenced a 12-hour underwater search of the ice canopy, utilizing specialized ice avoidance and side scan sonar systems. Once an ideal location was found, the ship performed a flawless vertical ascent.

Even though the wind chill factor reached a low of –50°F while surfaced, the 137 crew members and 17 officers on board reveled in the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for "ice liberty." Some of the men took pictures, while others filmed a “Spirit Spot” for the Army/Navy football game. A few even played a game of football themselves.

Charlotte Commanding Officer Cmdr. Dennis Carpenter was thrilled that the crew enjoyed a fun and safe 18 hours of ice liberty.

“Conducting an under-ice transit presented both unique challenges and rewards for the Charlotte team,” Carpenter said. “I am very proud of the men on board who engaged the situation head-on, and I am ecstatic that they were able to experience a North Pole surfacing.”

To ensure safety, several sets of floodlights were arranged on the surface to compensate for the complete lack of sunlight. Also, the submarine’s independent duty corpsman verified that each crew member wore appropriate clothing for the extreme temperature.

Underway for the transit were two guests, Lt. James Winsor, a submarine qualified officer of the Royal Navy, and Travis King, known affectionately by the crew as the “Ice Pirate,” a civilian arctic expert of the U.S. Navy’s Arctic Submarine Laboratory who has made countless under-ice trips throughout his career.

The newly-christened crew of “Bluenoses,” a nickname for Sailors who have crossed the Arctic Circle, had nothing but positive things to say about the whole experience.

“I couldn’t believe how dark it was at the Pole. It was pitch black and incredibly cold, but it was still really exhilarating,” said Yeoman 3rd Class (SS) Guadalupe Deleon, who was one of the first crew members topside. “After all, how many people can say they have been at the North Pole?”

Prior to commencing the transit, the crew underwent a demanding workup period designed to train the crew for the unusual Arctic environment. Specific attention was paid to proper and safe navigation in the polar region and ice avoidance.

Charlotte is undergoing a temporary change of homeport in order to undergo a major Depot Modernization Period (DMP) at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard, Portsmouth, Va. Upon conclusion of the availability, the submarine will return to its home port of Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.

For related news, visit the Commander, Submarine Force, U.S. Atlantic Fleet Navy NewsStand page at www.news.navy.mil/local/sublant/.

[Ponysoldier]

Sounds Like a joint military exercise to me,in which case
all parties are informed,and it is agreed on before hand,
Thats a nato thing. And for my infromation please
what do the Danes have to do with this? To my
Knowledge they have some boats but none of them
are nukes
Patrick

[RHClarke]

The Danes claim a small island in the Arctic - Hans Island, indicating that it is part of Greenland. Since they have a significant presence in the Arctic, they believe that they have the rights to the island.

The US Sub ex may have been joint US/UK, but not Cdn. It all comes down to our govt of the past 12 years having its collective head up its butt (pun intended) worrying over gay rights, global warming (yeah, right - tell the gas companies about it...) gun control, Quebec sensibilities, and damn few real world issues - including protecting what "used" to be rightfully ours. It was bad enough when our British masters gave away most of what is now Maine, and the majority of the northern coast of BC to you folks down south, but now we have no means of asserting our sovereign claim...Don't get me started on St. Pierre and Michelon!

Our military preence in the north is usually limted to a company of Rangers. No teed off Cdn Ranger is going to make too much of a difference if y'all (or the Danes) decide to strut on in and take over...

What a sorry joke. Vote Liberal Ontario and let's give the whole country away...

[Snowtractor]

...kick the Danes butts , then no one will mess with us. I see no one noticed the civilian expert who had made " countless" under ice trips.
Sean

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I posted this on another forum (Tanknet) yesterday:

ASW aside, this is what's pissing me off with this inept government we've been stuck with for 12 years - with the demise of the USSR, we now have the largest national landmass in the world, yet are utterly incapable of defending it, or even defining it by other than Liberal rhetoric:

CAMBRIDGE -- Prime Minister Paul Martin says a Liberal government will take the "necessary measures" to stop U.S. submarines from passing through Canada's Arctic waters.

He offered no specifics but cast a wary glance at reports that at least one U.S. Navy submarine recently patrolled the Arctic and likely passed through Canadian waters.

The prime minister has repeatedly drawn attention to his differences with the U.S. as part of a re-election strategy. But he chose his words carefully when asked whether Canada would accept U.S. subs in its coastal waters.

"No," Martin replied.

"Arctic waters are Canadian waters, and Canadian waters are sovereign waters. Canada will defend its sovereignty."

Together with the missle-defence package, the US has repeatedly stated defacto that it's willing to defend North America... yet this asshole, whose policies have not only inhibited but destroyed our ability to assert sovereignty, has actually fought the US on this. We have not the capability to make any meaningful contribution to continental defence, nor will we have any in the foreseeable future. Considering we had the world's third-largest navy in WW2, I am ashamed; while we may be on the edge of strengthening our force-projection overseas (hint - vote Conservative!), we need the US and its military resources to support the integrity of the continent. Our miniscule navy and worn-out airforce cannot do it by themselves - we should welcome US assistance, not fight it with bluster.

Who is this idiot? I am disgusted.

I'm a proud Canadian, proud of my background, proud of my heritage, proud of my people... but I know enough to STFU when I haven't got anything to back up my pontifications; this fool is just that - a fool. I know the part we can play as well or better than anyone, in this world's affairs... but the US are our brethren, and we need them for things we are unwilling or incapabable of doing ourselves. You don't poke your big brother with a pointed stick when you're about to get into a bunfight.

We may be small, but we are capable of doing great things, as we have proved in past; Martin will be the end of us if we don't shut him up at the polls.

[/rant]

[Frank Misztal]

Courtesy of the Toronto Sun, 19 Dec 05

When it comes to fixing the military, why trust Martin?

By PETER WORTHINGTON

Even before the first debate, when Stephen Harper promised to boost military spending if he's the next PM, Paul Martin responded that Harper was copying the Liberal plan.

What bullroar!

Martin had his chance to enhance the military, as have the Liberal governments for a dozen years.

Martin's support for the military is rhetoric, not action. Judging from his record in Parliament, dating back to when he was first elected, he's shown neither empathy for nor interest in the military.

His concern now is phony. A ploy for votes. Put simply, the military is just not his shtick.

So Harper's assurances have to be taken more seriously than either Martin's proposals or his criticisms.

It's pretty obvious what Canada needs to do about its military -- updated equipment, priority changes, what's needed and not needed for our own defence, for reinforcing sovereignty, for on-going and future roles in UN missions, NATO peacemaking, or in operations with the Americans. A lot of ground has to be made up.

Of significance is Harper's pledge to revive, restore, rehabilitate, reinvent -- call it what you will -- the Airborne Regiment in battalion strength.

When it was disbanded by then PM Jean Chretien in 1994, it robbed Canada of a unit that would have been ideal for Afghanistan, for Darfur, for any assignment where the going is rough.

It was foolish and unnecessary to disband the Airborne because, by the time it was disbanded, whatever problems existed in the gung-ho regiment had been solved by a competent commander (Col. Peter Kenward) and was up to par.

All Canada's infantry battalions today are well trained. We just don't have enough soldiers for roles that need to be filled. Assuring sufficient personnel is a "duty" the next PM shouldn't shirk.

Harper proposes a defence budget of around $20 billion by 2010, which is encouraging. But he should also pledge to look at how the existing budget is spent. The military is not noted for being cost-conscious.

State-of-the-art helicopters for a huge, rich country like Canada are not a luxury but essential. We need helicopters that can carry heavy loads or lots of soldiers for crises in our north, or for operations in remote lands.

A few attack helicopters might also round out the slate. This isn't a quest for the cheapest but the best.

Military trucks should be acquired from General Motors -- not from an Italian firm located in B.C.

To economize, a Harper government might consider mothballing submarines, which have been a costly mistake. Fighter aircraft are sexy -- but are they as important as transport planes to get troops and equipment to where they have to go, rather than rent Russian planes to carry them?

The same with transport ships. Maybe Harper could persuade Mr. Martin to bring his Canada Steamship Lines (CSL) back to Canadian registry and pay appropriate taxes rather than register them in Liberia to avoid taxes and to pay low wages.

In 1981 Martin's group paid $180 million to purchase CSL. It took Liberian (and other) registry in 1992, a year before Martin became finance minister in 1963.

Now Martin's sons own the company. No conflict of interest there, eh?

It's hard to tell how keen Harper is about the military. But he's headed in the right direction. We know Martin isn't keen and only expresses concern when there's an election in the air -- or when a soldier gets killed in a traffic accident in Afghanistan. A bit different from a firefight.

Most of our military suspects and resents the Liberal government. Understandable. Soldiers would likely give Harper's Conservatives a chance to do better. Me too.

Let's do it. It's the right thing.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Then they steal our name...

Bluenosers be damned..!!!!

Where does the name originate?
Legends abound about this. Historians say it was the name given to crewmmen aboard the schooners that carried blue-skinned potatoes grown in Nova Scotia to the Boston market in the mid 1780's onwards. Fishermen were superstitious not to wear coloured mittens. Yet, one story is that the name originated from the blue dye markings left on their noses after wiping with their homemade woollen mittens worn when they fished in dories on the cold North Atlantic.


No damned yankee 90 day wonder and a nuclear sub full of hairy bags is gonna steal our Nova Scotian fishermans name...!!!

We'll race 'em !!!!
Bring on the Bluenose ll.....!!!!

And if that dosen't work we'd slap 'em up side the head with a codfish..if we had any left...

We're from the land of wooden ships and iron men..!!!
And cute chicks....
Merry Christmas....

[Ponysoldier]

Wooden ships yes among the best ah the cute chicks
no comment (we dont need another war)
90 wonders ah yeah most of those Ive been around
( thats a bunch) are grunts and have more babysittters
than my kids did in the first ten years.Further more
you dont trust a mega ton piece of armor to a 20 year
old child you is only able to change drawers
Patrick

[wayne c. petrie]

There have been many valid points put across in this thread.I would like to put a few of my points.[thoughts], out also.
I agree our military forces are in a mess.Underfunding,outdated /inadequite equipment,lack of interest/concern by our goverment,etc.has made our once powerful forces,[small but mighty], a laughing stock,but,yet, still respected.Respect is something the American forces do not get,except for the the fact I am bigger than you and I can whoop your ass. Fear?The American fighting personnel,[below the rank of general ?] take the undeserved brunt of the abuse,[only following orders] .
The present American administration, IMO, does not care about soventry of a forighn nation.They will do what they damn well please if it is in the best interest of American bussiness/interest/Bush oil". Who will stand up to us?' they seem to say!
Pres.Reagan invaded Granada,a Britsh territory,without telling the British before hand,[ RESPECT FOR SOVRENTY?].It got a strong rebuke from British PM.Thachter, which only amounted to a slap on the wrist!
Remember CAMP X, A joint ventor between Brition and the U.S.?P.M.King was not informed of it as it would have been an illegal training area and he would have had to shut it down[.Please correct me if I am wrong on this].
Basicly,what I'm trying to say is that our soventry has been abused before and will continue to be so unless we take proper measures.Just what I'm not sure.
With the Lib./Pc. thing ,the Lib's have put our Armed Forces to a ineffective,all time low, level.The PC's sold out,to the USA; the Avro Arrow and our aerospace industry!The NDP are in bed with who ever will go along with them.
In the last election I voted for none of them,I used to be a strong NDP'er,but I stopped because of their defence policy,[let the Yanks do it}.BTW,I was on the prov. and fed.exectitive commities of the local NDP. riding where I lived.
I will vote for a canadate who will represent what I and his/her constituants want,[with common sense,which is politicaly rare], and not what party line dictates they have go with.
Am I dreaming? Or wishful thinking?
My grandfathers,father,uncles,cousions fought on the front lines in WW1,WW2,Korea,Suez Crisis,to protect our way of life and soventry.
Myself, I served in Germany,1969,NATO.
I am a big brother,but I WILL NOT step into my siblings place unless invited.The same goes for offspring.
I believe it is called respect for their rights.That is something I believe the American Gov't does believe in.Goes along with their thinking of,[sorry,I,forgot the name],expansion.
Forgien powers help ,yes,we need it,but do not try to rule/lord over us.
Sorry for the rambling nature of my post.

Wayne

PS;where is spell check?

[RHClarke]

As you put it Wayne

...our military forces are in a mess.Underfunding,outdated /inadequite equipment,lack of interest/concern by our goverment,etc.has made our once powerful forces,[small but mighty], a laughing stock,but,yet, still respected

, our forces has it's challenges - I will save my counterpoint to your outdated equipment comment for later.

On this issue, we can't blame the neighbours if we leave the back door wide open, don't take care of our property, or don't have the pride to protect what is rightfully ours. Sooner or later someone is going to wonder in - and in this case, our friends to the south are checking to see what goodies are available for the taking. So, how did we get to this point?

The soft power crowd has, since the '60's, questioned the need for a military in Canada - "what is the threat to Canada?". Successive governments have been more than happy to let the 'merikans do the dirty work of defence of North America, and to some extent defence of the world thru NATO. Why now, is it a big surprise that the US considers our Arctic region "open". We've considered it that way since I can remember.

Solutions? The Liberals would probably send Maude Barlow to the states to wave her finger at them... that will definitely get the tanks rolling north...

The realists will note that we have three oceans and therefore we need a strong naval presence - to hell with the blue water crap, let's protect our interests. Three naval bases (Labrador, Ellesmere Island and Northern BC would be a good start). An all- weather all ice condition fleet should be the next item. Set up a proper airstrip - like the yanks have in Alaska - patrol the territory. Throw in at least a brigade of joint warfare soldiers into the mix, and at least we have a presence of note. Maybe even expand the northern resort of Alert into a real army base of operations...

Now for the kicker - make Canadians work up north. Welcome all new immigrants to Canada by sending them up north for at least five years, which would include two years of mandatory military service - if you ain't fit, you don't get in (I can hear the social engineers rubbing their Birkenstocks together whilst girding their loins and twisting their lentil-stained beards in anger over that one...).

The way I see it, one Cdn Ranger for every 50K sq miles just ain't cutting it sovereignty wise...

So folks, don't blame the neighbour for snooping around if you don't have a gate or fence, you don't guard your property, and you leave the door wide open...look in the mirror Canada, and if you really love this country DON'T VOTE LIBERAL!

[Jon Skagfeld]

Petrie, Clarke...good posts...but, where the hell is your spell checker?

Doesn't NDHQ mean National DEFENSE Headquarters?...We couldn't defend ourselves from a concerted attack by the 9th Mississauga Brownie Troop, with the 4th Caledon Girl Guides in support!

I was gonna add more, but thought it best not to rant too much at this time of year, not that Muslims give a shit about it anyway!

[wayne c. petrie]

Jon
Spell checker did not show up on the screen!
I was counting on it tonight.I have been working outside all day on the Welland Canal.FINGERS ARE FROZEN,I THINK MY BRAIN TOO.LOL.I hope JUNIOR IS NOT FROZEN!!!
BTW a bit of triva[off topic],a ship, in lock 7, has been stuck in the ice inside the lock since 3pm Tues.and they can not seem to free it.Ships are backed up north and south of the lock.Canal is supposed to close down Dec.24[I beleive].We could not do our work, as a ships will come through,if they free the stuck one.
Locks 4,5,6 are twin locks.We are working on the east side of the twin locks.Shipping would use the west side.Now they have to use both sides of the twin locks to clear the shipping.Because of this I have Thur.-Mon.off!A lot of lost wages.Oh well ,what the hell.I bought a case of beer tonight,payday.
Merry Chirstmas to all.

Wayne

[wayne c. petrie]

I did not know the name of the U.S, agenda before on my earlier post.The U.S. government denys it but they seem to be following the principle of "Manifest Destinty and expansion".
Do google search on the topic.

Wayne

[Ponysoldier]

Ok manifest destiny yeah thats it. But were ever the
order came from for this crossing, it was wrong
The smart bet says the skipper gets canned
Patrick

[cmperry4]

When I saw the boat was called Charlotte, I got my wires crossed, thinking how ironic to have the same name as another vessel of Canada-U.S. controversy, then I checked, and it was actually the Caroline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Incident

I guess the SSN Charlotte must be named for the North Carolina city, as I think many of the newer SSNs are named for cities. I seem recall some sort of ACLU-type conniptions when they named one of the boats Corpus Christi - or maybe it was the Vatican complaining.

[Ponysoldier]

I was wondering about that,and what I was wondering about
was if this is the new seawolf class. Its the newest class
10 were slated for construction one I thought was to have
been finished by now. I wonder if this was some type
sea test of systems.Which is still not an excuse.
Patrick

[wayne c. petrie]

Mr.Clarke,points very well taken.I worked with a man who was at Alert.He was a radio operater.He said there were only a couple of people at the base
Yes, we have left the door open.Both Lib. & Pc are at fault,but,we the people,are to blame.We elect people who do not have a clue.The people are complacent.
Who would dare to attack us
The only one to attack us ,on our soil,is the U.S.of A..Not counting Brit/Frenc wars.Sorry ,forgot the Fenians,and German u-boats
The U.S.govern. wants our land and its resources.They will do what ever it takes to get it.They will take us over econonmicly.A military action will bring down condemnation from the rest of the world.
It has already started,Wal-mart,Home depot etc.as examples.They are forcing Canadian bus.out.How much of our economy is run/owned by Amer. bus.'s? Hell,some of our Canadian stamps are made in the U.S.
If you send new immagrents up north,or where-ever that would create an ethinic colony.Agin the Charter of Rights?Racial discrimination?HELL,THE MINORITIES RUN THIS GOV.

Required rules for immagration:Learn our language,leave your past problems where you came from, do not try to change our laws to suit you,accept the fact that are laws and morals are bsed on the Christian God [ Holy Bible],[Charter of Rights]
Our way of life has been preserved by those who fought those who tried to change it.Many gave their life to do so.If you do not like these simple terms,go back to where you came from!
I will not dishonour the sacrifice of those who gave thier lives,and youth, so I can enjoy the freedoms I now have!!!

Wayne

[cmperry4]

Ponysoldier: Here's the 411 on the 688s

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...n-688-unit.htm

And furthermore, if you look at SSN-766 you will find the the Charlotte is one of only two in her class to carry a special piggyback module for insertion of navy SEALS on to land - better have a look around Hans Island and elsewhere to see if anyone was dropped off!

[wayne c. petrie]

Patrick
You are probley right.The captain of the the sub may take the heat,a scapegoat.
But there is an admirarl to blame,somewhere.The skipper follows orders.It seems that this was preplaned.All the necessary gear was onboard for such an excursion,Including vip's.
If anything,it should give a wakeup call to Canada.

Wayne

[Ponysoldier]

Ok I dont have a problem with saying someone screwed
up big time,Nor do I have a problem listening to it.
They entered Canadian waters, I cant even see a
reason why one would do that the logic escapes
me.
What Im having a problem with is why would some-
one,anyone for that matter want military action
to occur from this? They one thing both our countries
do have in commom is ablitity to starve 1/2 the world
out. Our countries produce more food than any other
6 countries in the world.
If were gunna have a fit lets go to mexico and have it
they are raising more he-- with both our countries
than it is worth....
Patrick

[RHClarke]

Whether or the Charlotte used Cdn waters to get to the North Pole or not matters less to me than our ability to track and check sub movements. As well, I doubt that the Capt of the sub will get any heat as these boats only go where they are told to go.

What matters is acting like a sovereign nation. That means having the wherewithall to ensure that anyone who wants a piece of this country pays for it one way or another. The US would never allow any foreign power's military to trespass on its soil, and we in Canada should do the same. The fact that three nations (Russians - NP22, Danes- Hans Island and the US) have already trespassed indicates that something has to be done before this gets way out of hand.

Let's make this a more important issue with the lying, cheating bastards, the Conservatives and the fringe parties. Email your MP and tell him/her/it to get out of the trough and do something for Canada for once.

As for spelin, please xkuse the mispelin - I lost mi hukd on phonix...

[cmperry4]

As it turns out:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...lDecision2006/


Armed icebreakers, cool. Does that mean they're going to recycle those Bofors guns yet again off the patrol boats?

May have to ask the Dutch for our CH-47s back, too.

[RHClarke]

Ya think the Conservatives monitor MLU?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by RHClarke
Ya think the Conservatives monitor MLU?

One would hope. My local Conservative Association has my URLs from email anyway...