Iltis Product Improved

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Stop Press: New Iltis Jeep for Canadian Army Reveiled - Includes Many Product Improvements (source)



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[peter simundson]

AND....It has those hard to get two-tone doors and top!

[Snowtractor]

...gotta have that wheel 'BLING BLING' to attract the youth of today to enlist. It also comes with a 500watt and MP3 player compatible stereo. THUMPA THUMPA THUMPA
Sean

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Did you know they even tested an active suspension setup on the Iltis?!?

H.

[Jon Skagfeld]

You guys are just too cruel in decrying such a magnificent piece of kit as the heavily taxpayer subsidized Bombardier product which, if bought off-shelf would have cost $18,000.00 per copy, but no, we had to "Canadianize" the frigging thing in Frogland to the tune of roll off cost of $80,000.00 per copy.

Quel dommage!

[JD Baillie]

Jon,

Absolutely BANG ON!!!

Took a good truck and near ruined it toboot.

JD

[rob love]

The last couple of statements are a bit untrue:

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
we had to "Canadianize" the frigging thing in Frogland to the tune of roll off cost of $80,000.00 per copy.

The contract price for most of the Iltis versions was about $24,000 each.

Originally posted by JD Baillie
Took a good truck and near ruined it toboot.

While some of the Canadian modifications were continuously troublesome, (for example the North american alternator) the Germans phased their Iltis out fairly quickly as sub-standard. After having worked on them since they were new until they were just entering their graves, I got tired of continually working on the same problems. And why anyone would ever stick a pair of batteries underneath the cramped quarters of the back seat is beyond me, especially when there were two compartments on either side of the engine just begging to hold batteries.

Chronic problems with the Iltis were: Balljoints, axle dustboots, loose battery terminals (which would result in burnt out regulators, overcharging, burnt out lighting, and frying the batteries), burnt out Ignition modules, fuel pump failures (and they were mounted over the rear axle in the old days), leaking radiators, and the occasional shortage of available parts like speedometers and aircleaners. There were also way to many plastic bushings and clips for a military vehicle.

I have owned at least one of every type of jeep the Cdn forces has ever used from WW2 to the M151a2, but I wouldn't take an Iltis is you gave it to me.

[mike mckinley]

hi rob

interesting points on the iltis. not to hijack the topic, but what do you think of the m151a2?

cheers!!
mike

[rob love]

Originally posted by mike mckinley
interesting points on the iltis. not to hijack the topic, but what do you think of the m151a2?

One of the biggest problems I found with the M151A2 was that the operators didn't know enough (or were too lazy) to constantly grease the 12 U joints in the powertrain. But the engines were far superior to the 1940s designed willys engines in the M38/m38a1 fleet. I bought 30 M151s when they went for disposal, and only about 5 of them had had their engines replaced during their service life. The truck was also better geared for the highway, although was certainly not a hillclimber like the willys. The only wheeled vehicle that I have ever ridden in that had nicer cross country suspension than the M151A2, was the HUMVEE.
The only other major shortcoming if the M151A2s were the rear suspension points, which would wear and elongate, resulting in very dangerous handling. Transmission/transfer case assemblies were a bit weak as well.

Somewhere, I have an old EME bulletin that lists the maintenance costs per 1000 miles on the 3 jeep fleets which were in service at the time. The M38A1cdn2s and 3s both continued to climb rapidly based on the mles driven, whereas the M151A2 peaked at about the $1000 per year amount, with a very slight increase in costs based on mileage.

I have always said that the nickname "disposable jeep" which was given by the Cdns to the M151A2s, was the mistaken belief that the lightweight build of the vehicle represented something disposable, rather than the advanced design that it was. The other nickname it had, "rollover jeep" was more fitting.

[mike mckinley]

hi rob
i have an ex cdn 151a2, and its engine has never been rebuilt, and it runs great. i hear you on the u joints...the previous owner did no maintenance, and now i have a lot of parts to replace. my biggest problem is the body rot, but with some new panels and one of those under body kits, from a.m.g. it should be a decent vehicle when done. do you have any of the 151's left that you bought? as well, if you have any documents or pictures of the m151 in canadian service, i would love to see them.

cheers!!
mike

[rob love]

I had to destroy all mine, but had a body which had some minor accident damage in the late 70s, so I built that one into a mutt. Because the body had only been in service for about 4 years, it was actually in better shape than any of the 30 I bought.
I don't have any in service photos, but I believe the latest issues of Convoy will have photos.

I do have most if not all of the CFTOs on the Canadian M151.

Was yours cut up? Most of the surviving M151s I have seen were from Alberta where they were able to cut them clean in half, and later patched them back up into working vehicles.

[mike mckinley]

hi rob

mine was ex gagetown, with the center section cut out, so it is a re weld, but one of the better ones i have seen. i am aware of the convoy articles...i wrote them. i have always felt that because of the cut rule, the 151 would be one of the rarer canadian vehicles in time, so i'm attempting to gather as much information on the vehicle, as it relates to the C.F. as possible, before it dissappears for ever.

cheers!!
mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by rob love
While some of the Canadian modifications were continuously troublesome, (for example the North american alternator) the Germans phased their Iltis out fairly quickly as sub-standard.

I would not say the German Army phased out the Iltis fairly quickly as sub-standard. The first examples entered service with the Bundeswehr late 1978, while the first Mercedes-Benz "Wolf" G-Wagen entered service in 1989. And the Iltis is still serving in Germany, although now relegated to non-frontline duties. The Iltis was, and still is, regarded as a very capable off-road vehicle in Germany. How different it is in Canada!

Regards,
Hanno
http://www.geocities.com/spoelstra.geo/vw183/

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by mike mckinley
i have always felt that because of the cut rule, the 151 would be one of the rarer canadian vehicles in time, so i'm attempting to gather as much information on the vehicle, as it relates to the C.F. as possible, before it dissappears for ever.

Mike, rightly so and keep at it!

Did you know an ex-Canadian UN Forces 74 Pattern Jeep is preserved in Sweden?!?

Regards,
Hanno
http://www.geocities.com/fordm151/m151cdn.htm

[mike mckinley]

hi hanno

i remember seeing that pic before, and a nice looking rig it is. i look at today and see that there are still "new finds" regarding the cmp series, and many other vehicles, especially when it comes to photographs and technical literature, mostly because people weren't restoring them 60 years ago. over time, this information gets tossed and forgotten. luckily, much of it has been recovered and made available again. although the 151, iltis, or what ever vehicles are relatively modern by comparison, there will come a day, when we are old men, and some young bloke will be looking for info on one of these vehicles.....it will be great to be able to help him out. mike

[rob love]

I know of at least 4 uncut ex-cdn mutts here on the prairies. A few went out the side door in trades with collectors.

My information on the Iltis being relegated to sub-standard service came from a German who was posted here to Shilo for the last years that GATES operated. Of course, he was somewhat biased against the Iltis, being a member of the Munga club. When I say "phased out", I should have said from front line service. Here in Canada, very few SMP vehicles have been replaced that quickly. We like to get 20-30 years out of a vehicle fleet here.

There are still about 40 Iltis vehicles in the various compounds here in SHilo. They have been using them for "advanced driver training", which means they can bend the fenders up real good, and not get too worried about accident reports.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by mike mckinley
although the 151, iltis, or what ever vehicles are relatively modern by comparison, there will come a day, when we are old men, and some young bloke will be looking for info on one of these vehicles

Mike, I'm a young old guy, but welcome pics of M151s in Canadian service any day!

Hanno

P.S.: how about sharing a pic of your 74 Pattern Jeep?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by rob love
My information on the Iltis being relegated to sub-standard service came from a German who was posted here to Shilo for the last years that GATES operated. Of course, he was somewhat biased against the Iltis, being a member of the Munga club. When I say "phased out", I should have said from front line service. Here in Canada, very few SMP vehicles have been replaced that quickly. We like to get 20-30 years out of a vehicle fleet here.

Being a member of the Munga club, he should be proud of the Auto Union pedigree that was carried over to the Iltis! (VW acquired Auto Union, dropped the DKW marque and let the name Audi re-emerge. Audi, being the successor of the original Munga manufacturer, further developed it into the VW 183 Lkw 0,5 t gl, alias Iltis.)

The Mercedes-Benz / Steyr "Wolf" was the replacement for at least three types of vehicles in service with the German Armed Forces in the mid-1980s: LKW 0,5 t gl (Iltis), LKW 0,75 t gl (KraKa) and PKW 0,4 t (VW 181). The fact it replaces various vehicle types is embodied by the variety of long- and short wheelbase, hard- and soft top and specialist body types. Iltis was the front line half-ton truck for over a decade, and will most likely make the 30-years "in service" mark. Not bad for a design originating from the mid-1950s!

H.

[mike mckinley]

hi hanno

this is my 151 just after i brought it home
mike

[mike mckinley]

here is another one not far from where i live. it was a single torch cut, and butt welded back together.

mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by mike mckinley
this is my 151 just after i brought it home

Looks like an excellent example of a Canadian military jeep, Mike!

H.

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
The Iltis was, and still is, regarded as a very capable off-road vehicle in Germany. How different it is in Canada!

Regards,
Hanno
http://www.geocities.com/spoelstra.geo/vw183/

I must agree with your comment that the Iltis is a very capable vehicle, although my experience driving one was limited to a few weeks on exercises. For others, perhaps familiarity breeds contempt. I found that the Iltis was relatively quiet and exceptionally nimble; it's width allowing you to drive down narrow trails that no other vehicle could possibly follow giving one a great tactical advantage. It was also easy to camoflage and conceal due to it's small size, yet it had no problem carrying four Engineers and their kit. In addition, the Iltis was quite comfortable travelling at highway speeds as I found when driving one to Greenwood, N.S. after an exercise at Stephenville, Nfld.
There seems to be a tradition of slagging our kit in the Canadian Forces, anybody who carried the C1 hates the C7...anyone who drove the M38A1CDN hates the Iltis....anyone who drove the 5/4 ton hates the LSVW. I guess lighter, faster, better is overrode by the comfort level familiarity brings. I can tell you that as an Engineer I'll take a backhoe over a shovel any day!
Are there any Navy types out there that think the 280's were better than the 330's?
Are there any Airforce types that think the 101's were better than the 118's?
Are there any Army types that think the Leopards were better than the LAV's?
Ooops, well two out of three ain't bad!

CHIMO!

[rob love]

Sapper:
My slagging of the Iltis comes after 20 years of maintaining them. Many of the repetitive problems we had to fix on them were unknown to the operators, who didn't seem to show up to work until 10:30, took an hour and a half lunch, and rarely stuck around until 3:30 in the afternoon. When your greatest concern of the day is "what time can we go home?" , I guess mechanical problems come a distant last place in the scheme of things. My apologies if the above doesn't apply to you, or your unit, but it seemed to apply to most of the 1st line combat arms units I worked with, and certainly any militia.

Below I'll list the top dozen or so repetitive failures that I recall on the Iltis. How many do you recall?

1) Burnt out headlamps: early versions alternators were wired wrong, which would kill the batteryies. Upon removal of the slave cable, the alternator voltage would spike, and burn out the headlamp bulbs. It did not help that early replacement bulbs were of the 12volt type.
This defect was later corrected by the removal of a small bridge on the alternator, and the installation of a capacitor near the master cylinder.
2) torn CV dustboots: these seem to have started tearing from the day we got them. Later installation of an extra set of guards helped.
3) Batteries under the seats. What an operator doesn't see, he doesn't worry about. Loose or dirty terminals resulted in over charging and eventually burning out the regulator and the batteries. The driver would report that he smelled something funny for the last 100 miles, by which time it was already too late.
4) Upper ball joints: A later modification had us install grease nipples on them, but the driver usually didn't catch these. These wore beyond acceptable limits way too often.
5) Broken bolts on the axle shafts to the diffs: Not too big a deal; the operators would merely keep the truck in 4 wheel drive and keep going. The frame would generally keep the shaft where it belonged. I have seen frames worn almost paper thin from this.
And if the bolts weren't broken, then they were sure to either break or strip when you went to remove them to complete the task listed in 2)
6) Fuel pump failures: It wasn't until we had changed our millionth fuel pump that we discovered that you could just whack the old one with a hammer, and it would start back up again. It would last as long as a new one.
7) fuel tanks: the explosafe foam balls would disintegrate and make their way into the carburator. (a later fuel filter installation cured this problem). Also the necks of the fuel tanks would collapse and leak, requiring replacement of the tank. This was a big job; requiring removal of the radios, and removal of all floorplates. To prevent theft of the radios, the operators would normally lock them in place, and it was often difficult to get the key during the 3 hours that they were actually at their workplace.
8) Bent linkage for the 4wd/2wd: operators like to force this into position. The proper way was to leave the lever forward and it would engage when it was ready to.
9) Broken hood latches: whoever decided to make these out of rubber instead of the old M-series jeep style hood latches likely had shares in a rubber plantation somewhere.
10) 8" long wheel nut socket: the wheel wrench issued with the vehicle wasn't long enough to provide enough leverage to remove the lug nuts. Many a recovery call was to merely change a tire for the operator.
11) Plastic parts: things like seat belt latches, door cups, fuel pedal bushings, seat rail bushings, and a myriad of other snap in plastic/nylon pieces ensured the guy in the tool crib was kept busy ordering these little pieces (except the seatbelts of course; these had to be ordered on a work order) Also, there was nothing funnier than watching the roof fly open at highway speeds when those flimsy roof latches, which used a compressible rollpin for it's hinge points, decided to let go.
12) Ignition system: 9 out of 10 times the failure was the TCI. There was also a year long period where spark plugs were unavailable. There was also a year when air filters were unavaiable. Then there was a couple of years where the speedometers were unavailable. Near the end, you couldn't get exhaust parts or differentials either.
13) Radiators: the same company that made the MLVW radiators also got to make the Iltis rads. It took about 7 years with each fleet before the DND had another contractor make the rads. It is unlikely that you would find an origional radiator in either vehicle after that time period.
14) Broken/worn alternator mounts: the cdn version used a north american alternator, which featured an under engineered mounting system. The top bushing would also wear out rapidly, so the driver couldn't tighten the belts properely.

I'll agree that the Iltis was far superior to it's predessesors when it came to highway travel, and it certainly had the range (about 300 miles to the tank of gas) and speed (could reach 70mph) . But cross country it lacked the torque of the older engines. I remember the 2ppcli guys complaining that the engine would cut out when the vehicle would become airborne. (There was a governor built in to the rotor). Oh yeah, that reminds me:
15) rotor would climb off the distributer shaft and sit uselessly in the distributer cap; I had more than a few recovery calls for this, including a 2 in the morning call in no mans land in cypress. First time I ever had live guns pointed at me, thanks to the turks, and the iltis.

Best of luck to those that want to buy one of these. In fact, a wise man would buy two or three, cause your going to need the spare parts.

Oh, and I won't even get in to the brake systems. That was a whole nuther batch of migraines.

As to hating the LSVW, boy, now theres another can of worms. Thats not to say the 5/4 was perfect either, I think we flogged that fleet for about 10 years too long.
Maybe the real problem comes with trying to keep a SMP fleet vehicle, which is constantly driven to it's endurance point, going for 2 to 3 decades.

[sapper740]

Originally posted by rob love
Sapper:
My slagging of the Iltis comes after 20 years of maintaining them. Many of the repetitive problems we had to fix on them were unknown to the operators, who didn't seem to show up to work until 10:30, took an hour and a half lunch, and rarely stuck around until 3:30 in the afternoon. When your greatest concern of the day is "what time can we go home?" , I guess mechanical problems come a distant last place in the scheme of things. My apologies if the above doesn't apply to you, or your unit, but it seemed to apply to most of the 1st line combat arms units I worked with, and certainly any militia.

Rob, don't hold back.


Seriously, as in the preface to my remarks, I had only limited experience with the Iltis and no experience with maintenance of one, which I'm sure was a nightmare. Operationally, in my experience, it was a good vehicle. My experience with the 5/4 ton was owning one privately. Other than it being a tremendous gas hog, it was a functional vehicle. My experiences with the LSVW were all military and I found it to be satisfactory for it's task, if somewhat underpowered.
Unfortunately in Canada, too many of our Defence purchases are based upon political and cost/benefit pressures than actually buying what is best for our troops and our small budget means keeping kit around long after it's expected lifespan, hence driving EME types insane!

CHIMO!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by rob love
First time I ever had live guns pointed at me, thanks to the turks, and the iltis.

Rob,

Thanks for pointing out the weak points of the Iltis (and it's users) to us. Man, you must have sweared and cussed during those 20 years!


H.

[rob love]

Originally posted by sapper740
, hence driving EME types insane!

And the insane EME part would be me.

Actually, my long winded reply on the Iltis should be sobering thought for anyone considering owning one as a long term driver.

[mike mckinley]

hi rob

you had mentioned that at times there were certain parts in short supply. now, anyone owning, or considering iltis ownership should consider the future of spare parts. with any other "jeep" type of vehicle, it seem to be relatively easy to get any part. most are nos or to, while some stuff is repro. with the iltis, i'm not so sure. a friend of mine has one and has used standard vw parts in some areas, but with the drive train, well, that's another story. my line of thinking here is that they were built by a company that doesn't normally build automobiles. they were, by many accounts, heavily modified from the original volkswagen design, and were produced in a relatively small number, which means a small parts supply. i can see this being a problem in time unless the repro market were to get onboard, and for the limited number's i can't see that happening either. if you really want to feel nautious, go to epay.ca and type in iltis....when i see prices like that, i'm glad i chose the two jeeps and the c.m.p. that i have.

mike

[rob love]

If you don't like the ebay prices, try the Bombardier prices.
Examples are: TCI aprox $500
turn signal flasher unit: $500+

I remember seing prices on simple things like washers were over $1 each, for something that should have been 10 cents.

One modification I remember (which was illegal as it was unapproved) was that in Cypress we installed the VW rabbit mechanical fuel pumps on the engine and bypassed the electric fuel pumps. They ran flawlessly, and without any vapour lock even in the million degree heat of Cypress.
There will be ways to keep them going for a while anyway. You can replace most of the 24 volt ignition and starter system over to 12 volt by using commercial components from the rabbit. The guages could all be changed over to mechanical, or 12 volt equivelants as well. With a bit of ingenuity you might be able to get a normal flasher into there somehow. But then at the end of the day it isn't origional, which is what collecting is all about.
The military surplus stocks won't last long. The CF was run like a business, with purchases of spare parts based on previous usages. So there won't be 1000s of spare anythings available for the guys who want to keep these things origional.

[aasurplus]

Hey Rob,

you got any left over refence books I could come by and borrow and photo copy as I now own 6 of these fine units and I think I should be able to make 1 run soon but there is one part missing which I do not what it is...against the firewall lots of wires going to it...just above and to the right of the distubuator??

any ideas or help would be great ) your neighbor to the north east


mark...

[rob love]

Mark
That sounds like the TCI box, which is what controls the ignition. These were usually the first thing we would change when the engine quit. And 5 out of 6 times, that would cure a non-running condition.
A common mistake some of the less experienced mechanics would make was to stick a meter or test light probe into the wires running to or from the TCI. The outer portion of the wires is a grounded loom, so when they would manage to get a power reading, it was usually just long enough to burn out the core of the wire.
Also, note that there are two wires which can be plugged in interchangeably to the wrong spots on the TCI.

Not sure what you can use to bypass the TCI. It likely is possible to make a different ignition control unit work in it's place, but there just aren't that many ignition units in 24Volt.

Sorry, but I kept very little of anything having to do with the Iltis, other than maybe a parts CD.