Handbrake replacement

Little Jo · #1 01-04-11, 02:31

Hi All

Ever started a job and wished you should have left well enough alone. Well I started a job feel like that now.

I decided I would make my 1942 Willys Jeep a bit safer by replacing the existing park handbrake and fit new transmission brake linings. I purchased a new inner and outer handbrake cable and new bonded linings fitted to the transmission brake. And that was when the problems started.

After first feeling pleased with myself, I strarted to reinstal the transmission brake. There is a frustrating bolt with a hooked end which after an hour of fiddling and colourful languageI, just could not put back into place. There is just not enough room to move as the top of the bolt is restricted by the jeep body.

I am sure there are restorers out there that have also come up against this problem. I can now see I have only a couple of options left.

1. Raise the body to allow movement to drop the bolt into place.

2. Cut a 2 inch (50cm) square hole in the floor and drop the bolt into place, then cover the hole with a cover plate. ( for future use. )

3. Appeal to you guys for an easy solution????

I have attached a couple of photos indicating my problem.

Little Jo

Tony Van Rhoda

Lynn Eades · #2 01-04-11, 05:55

Can you let the cross member under the trans down? (lower the whole back end of the motor/g-box/ transfer case etc)

Cameron Reed · #3 01-04-11, 06:06

possible to take a little of the bolt? when mine is adjusted up there is a lot of thread protruding? maybe silly but if it came out it should be able to go back in although sometimes there has to be some choice words good luck

Mike K · #4 01-04-11, 06:17

Tony

A friend in the VMVC , many years ago, installed one of the later Jeep handbrake systems in his WW2 Jeep ..e.g., the internal expanding shoe type used on the CJ Jeeps ? , - he fitted everything , new cable ..After a lot of work, the thing did work, but you still have to really pull hard on the dash handle to make it work, and even then, it is somewhat marginal.

The cable is the weak link... it will stretch , even a new one is iffy.

Land Rover hand brakes work so effectively cos it's a direct / short link with levers , down to the drum.... no cables to stuff it up.

MIKE

Jordan Baker · #5 01-04-11, 06:23

Stupid question but how did you take that bolt out in the first place? Why not just do the opposite.

Lang · #6 01-04-11, 08:57

Tony,

I presume you removed the whole thing as a unit to refurbish it with the bolt hanging there and forgot to put the bolt back when you bolted it all up again.

I assume you tried putting the hook upside down into the bottom of the hole then running the bolt in a semi circle until it stands upright. You might need to widen the hole a little to get it around the corner.

Best thing to do and only about 20 minute's work is to drop the universal. Unbolt the output shaft flange and pull the brake bracket unit off, drop the bolt in and put it all back.

I wouldn't do that but I am a bit rough. The hole is not critical with the hook so I would just get a drill of the bolt diameter and run through the hole and elongate it at the same angle you have the bolt jamming. By the looks of your photo it will not take much. You could also try a bar beside the bolt on the floor to prise it up, not so much that you permanantly bend the floor (but you could tap the lump back down again if you did). It is amazing how much movement you will get and as I said it does not look like you will need much.

Last choice is to just get another bolt, threaded a both ends and slide it up fom the bottom and put a lock nut and heavy washer on it in place of the hook.

The whole exercise is a basic waste of time because only one jeep in a thousand has a handbrake that could be described as working effectively. Your new modern brake linings are likely to be much too hard to work properly, despite perfect mechanical operation, anyway.

Keep at it you will get it back together.

Lang

Little Jo · #7 03-04-11, 10:09

I would like to thank, Lynn, Cameron,Mike, Jordan and Lang for their advice and idea's regarding to my "Transmission Brake" fitting problem. I had a good look at all the suggestions, then sat back had a good look at the problem and then solved it.

I made a simple surgical cut approx. 50mm x 20mm in the floor and then dropped the curved hooked bolt straight through, put the two springs on as the bolt came down and problem solved. The whole operation to put the brake back together, including the cutting out, took less then half an hour. No agro and no neighbours complaints about colourful language. I made a cover for the hole for any future use.

Thanks again guys for your input.

Little Jo

Tony Van Rhoda

Phil Waterman · #8 03-04-11, 15:31

Hi Tony

Now you need to assign a field modification service number the the solution. The rest of us will now be looking to see if other Jeeps have a similar little hole. My bet is that your solution may have been done before, though with out the attention to being neat, shall we say with a gas axe, or even an axe.

Nice solution.

Cheers Phil

Little Jo · #9 04-04-11, 00:26

Phill

I think you are correct. I spent a long time on my back under the Jeep trying to put the transmission brake back together. But after a lot of frustration I gave up and put the problem to MLU members.

Their answers got me thinking and I solved my problem from a frustration into an easy job to fix. I can't understand why the original guys building the Jeep did not add another small inspection point take make the replacement of the hooked bolt easier to work on.

I used a long screw driver and pushed it from the bottom up through the holes to the floor and marked the spot directly in line with the holes that would take the bolt.

I then drilled a pilot hole from underneath to mark the exact spot. I then drilled a large hole from the top to take my electric jigsaw and cut the hole.

The hooked bolt just dropped through into place, I pulled the bolt upwards and placed the spring on the bolt lowered it a bit, put on the second spring and dropped the bolt through the last hole and put on the nut. so easy.

I then cut out a small cover and screwed it over the hole and painted it.

The transmission brake regularly needs to be removed, cleaned and lining replaced so why not make it easy to work on. I hope this will help others out there in MLU land.

Little Jo

Tony Van Rhoda

Bob Moseley (RIP) · #10 04-04-11, 12:35

Hi all - to quote Tony "then sat back had a good look at the problem and then solved it". What he didn't mention was where he was sitting when he came up with the solution. I have it on very good authority that the little boy's room was the location, a place where much inspiration is gained.

Bob

motto · #11 04-04-11, 23:07

When Dodge started production of the WC62/63, 6x6, 1-1/2 ton Weapons Carrier the transmission handbrake was moved from the gearbox to the transfer case because of it (the t'fer case) being a two speed unit. This put the handbrake assembly directly under the seat area, towards the rear. To enable this to be done the area above the handbrake had to be given a distinct hump to clear the brake assembly and also an oblong hole was made so as to allow the 'J' bolt to be removed.
For the sake of standardisation these changes were made to the entire open cab production whether the cab was destined for 6x6 or 4x4. Many WC owners have wondered what the hole in the cab floor under the seats was there for as it serves no purpose on the 4x4.
In regards to the effectiveness (or not) of the Jeep handbrake. I have a friend who many years ago determined to get his to work 'as it should'. He carried out the adjustments and did in fact get the thing to work quite well. That evening we got in the vehicle to attend a club meeting and had only gone a couple of miles before flames were noticed coming up from under the floor around the levers. His response was quite impressive. We came to an immediate halt and as we exited the vehicle he was already removing his jumper which he then used to beat out the flames. My response was equally impressive, I couldn't stop laughing at the sight.
David

Little Jo · #12 05-04-11, 00:23

Hi Motto

It is interesting that Dodge worked out their problem and made a few alterations for future vehicles, Willys should have also looked at it. I can share the funny sight of the jumper coming off to beat out the flames, but I think I will install a new fire extinguisher as the old hand pump one is US and for effect only.

Little Jo

Tony Van Rhoda

Scott Bentley · #13 05-04-11, 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Moseley

I have it on very good authority that the little boy's room was the location, a place where much inspiration is gained.

Bob

Truer words have never been spoken

Little Jo · #14 05-04-11, 02:46

Hi Scotty

No truer word spoken, I have had my best thoughts come to me in the "LittleRoom" when problem solving. Having known Salesman Bob for over 30 years, I forgot he would have worked it out,,,,,

Little Jo

Tony Van Rhoda

Mike K · #15 05-04-11, 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by motto

In regards to the effectiveness (or not) of the Jeep handbrake. I have a friend who many years ago determined to get his to work 'as it should'. He carried out the adjustments and did in fact get the thing to work quite well. That evening we got in the vehicle to attend a club meeting and had only gone a couple of miles before flames were noticed coming up from under the floor around the levers. His response was quite impressive. We came to an immediate halt and as we exited the vehicle he was already removing his jumper which he then used to beat out the flames. My response was equally impressive, I couldn't stop laughing at the sight.
David

I did the same thing years ago..adjusted up the handbrake band on my MB.... after a mile down the road, smoke poured out from underneath...it was just starting to flame .. panick ensued .

Beware Jeep owners

Mike

Pete Ashby · #16 05-04-11, 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by motto

In regards to the effectiveness (or not) of the Jeep handbrake. I have a friend who many years ago determined to get his to work 'as it should'. He carried out the adjustments and did in fact get the thing to work quite well. That evening we got in the vehicle to attend a club meeting and had only gone a couple of miles before flames were noticed coming up from under the floor around the levers. His response was quite impressive. We came to an immediate halt and as we exited the vehicle he was already removing his jumper which he then used to beat out the flames. My response was equally impressive, I couldn't stop laughing at the sight.
David

This made me smile, been there done that, I can't think any one who has owned a jeep hasn't had a similar experience.

Basically its a design fault in that the activating cam levers on the band are not long enough to enable sufficient leverage to be applied by an out of the dash handle. It would be a whole lot better with a conventional hand brake lever through the floor as I think from memory GP’s had.
There are four actions that can be taken to help this poor design

1. Ensure the transfer case output shaft has an effective oil seal, obvious but often over looked resulting in oil collecting in he bottom of the brake drum on standing only to then contaminate the lining.

2. Ensure the drum is true so many originals are dished ridged or distorted by heat and contaminated linings this results in the already meagre braking surface being reduced by as much as 50%. Truing up on the lath is possible if the ware is not too bad, these days it should not be difficult to obtain a replacement.

3. Check the profile of the activating cam levers these can ware down so that the already poor mechanical advantage at this fulcrum point is further reduced. Take the brake apart and build up with the mig then grind to re-profile or alternately get new repro parts

4. Fit a new cable ensuring that the curve down the fire wall is a gradual as you can make it and that the path to the hand brake is a straight and direct a possible to minimise friction, is worthwhile running a little oil down the cable before fitting

Done collectively these actions will improve the overall effectiveness of the transmission brake from B#### woeful to just acceptable, here in the UK a lot of the jeeps that tow trailers have been converted to the M38 expanding shoe brake something I have not had experience with.
The jeep was undoubtedly revolutionary in terms of design and functionality but like all things in life it was not perfect and the hand brake is a case in point.

Pete

gary_bath_jr · #17 05-04-11, 22:02

Here's a crazy idea, not sure if it will work as I do not have the parts to test, however, is it possible to insert the short end of the U up ffrom the bottom of the hole and then rotate the bolt and push it up from the bottom? Of course this will only work if the hole is not threaded and you have to put a nut on it once in place.

Gary

Little Jo · #18 06-04-11, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by gary_bath_jr

Here's a crazy idea, not sure if it will work as I do not have the parts to test, however, is it possible to insert the short end of the U up ffrom the bottom of the hole and then rotate the bolt and push it up from the bottom? Of course this will only work if the hole is not threaded and you have to put a nut on it once in place.

Gary

Hi Gary

Mate, I tried everything even your idea, but to no avail as there are 3 holes the bolt passes through and I must admit cutting the small hole in the floor worked a treat, too easy.

Little Jo

Tony Van Rhoda

Yeo.NT · #19 06-04-11, 13:10

Just a observation that I have come across while working on MLVWs and this applies to all MVs. Why are the park brakes kept being replaced when in theory they are designed to hold a object stationary. Since it isn't moving there shouldn't be any wear?

Pete Ashby · #20 06-04-11, 13:39

On transmission braked systems it will almost always be due to a combination of oil contamination and over adjustment to compensate. Inevitably this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy until the whole thing either catches fire or completely fails to operate.

Little Jo · #21 06-04-11, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Ashby

On transmission braked systems it will almost always be due to a combination of oil contamination and over adjustment to compensate. Inevitably this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy until the whole thing either catches fire or completely fails to operate.

Pete

You are right on the button there. From what I have seen with the MB Jeep there will be constant regular ongoing work due to the original design of the transmission brake.

Have a look at the photo showing the brake linings after I removed it, there was enough oil to service my lawnmower, no wonder the hand brake did not work. The other photo shows the new bonded brake linings before I re-installed it. At the moment the transmission brake works, but for how long will be interesting.

Tony
Little Jo

Phil Waterman · #22 06-04-11, 16:08

The oil serves a purpose to prevent the brake band from rusting. Keeping the lining and band well soaked in oil or gear lub prevent failure due to rust.

But all kidding aside the, the point is if the brake is correctly adjusted and never has to be applied to stop the vehicle instead of or in aid of the regular brakes it should not wear out. They due seem to get oil soaked and if you ever drive off with the brake partially engaged it will eventually let you know it or the cars behind you will when smoke starts rolling from under the truck.

I too have done a sudden stop on the side of the road diving from the cab with fire extinguisher in hand, after seeing smoke in the rear mirrors. Looking under the truck in the smoke to hear that sizzling sound like some one cooking bacon.

No flames, so I chocked the wheels released the hand brake and sat there until the whole mess was cooled down.

Cheers Phil

Little Jo · #23 07-04-11, 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

The oil serves a purpose to prevent the brake band from rusting. Keeping the lining and band well soaked in oil or gear lub prevent failure due to rust.

But all kidding aside the, the point is if the brake is correctly adjusted and never has to be applied to stop the vehicle instead of or in aid of the regular brakes it should not wear out. They due seem to get oil soaked and if you ever drive off with the brake partially engaged it will eventually let you know it or the cars behind you will when smoke starts rolling from under the truck.

I too have done a sudden stop on the side of the road diving from the cab with fire extinguisher in hand, after seeing smoke in the rear mirrors. Looking under the truck in the smoke to hear that sizzling sound like some one cooking bacon.

No flames, so I chocked the wheels released the hand brake and sat there until the whole mess was cooled down.

Cheers Phil

Hi Phil

Looks like from comments made there is an ongoing problem with the jeep transmission brake and I am pleased that I am not alone out here in Jeep world. I have not had the smoke from under the jeep incident yet, something to look forward too, I hope not.

There was so much oil on the linings, it was soft and mushy and beyond cleaning and drying. I replaced the oil seals before putting the brake back together and I am looking forward to a nice long drive to see what transpires.

This will have to wait until after I next Monday, that is when my jeep is booked into the government garage for all their checks. If the vehicle is passed I can then obtain my registraion disk and legally drive on the road. I just hope they keep an open mind and remembber the Jeep in 68 years old and not modern technology.

Cheers

Tony
Little Jo

Phil Waterman · #24 07-04-11, 14:52

Hi Tony

My fun was in my C60S Pattern 13, but the design of the parking brake is very similar. Couple of thoughts, when you replaced the seal what was the condition of the surface it was sealing against. Many of my out put flanges have had a grove in them, which can be fixed with a speedy sleeve. The other place that I have had lub leakage is along the splines, so that it comes out around the nut on the shaft end.

Cheers Phil

TCLARK · #25 08-04-11, 05:40

Hi
I would first just put a pry bar in the best place and pull down on the tranny while you align the j bolt . looks like you only
need a 1/4 inch
Terry

Little Jo · #26 08-04-11, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Tony

My fun was in my C60S Pattern 13, but the design of the parking brake is very similar. Couple of thoughts, when you replaced the seal what was the condition of the surface it was sealing against. Many of my out put flanges have had a grove in them, which can be fixed with a speedy sleeve. The other place that I have had lub leakage is along the splines, so that it comes out around the nut on the shaft end.

Cheers Phil

Hi Phil

When I stripped the parts down to fit the new oil seals, I was pleasantly surprised to find all was nice and smooth and the splines were OK as well, all I can put this down to is that there must have been an earlier restoration done some years ago or she was treated with kid gloves and that I find hard to believe. The guy I bought the jeep from had it in a shed on a farm for about 15 years, I know he did not touch it.

Cheers

Tony
Little Jo

Little Jo · #27 08-04-11, 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCLARK

Hi
I would first just put a pry bar in the best place and pull down on the tranny while you align the j bolt . looks like you only
need a 1/4 inch
Terry

Hi Terry

Mate, I needed more like one inch so the hole in the floor was a good option, so easy and will not be a pproblem if I have to get to it again in the future.

Cheers

Tony
Little Jo