A really dumb question. Army Harrier Pilot

Bill Murray · #1 12-10-07, 20:41

But.......I thought this might be a place to ask as some of you have been in Afghanistan or know folks who are there.

Last night one of our occassional customers came in to complain about a repair job we did on his radio control truck last February.

The whole story is too long to tell here, but he was more than a bit drunk and got into quite an argument with my staff (I had already gone home and this was relayed to me by phone).

During his tirade, he played the Veterans card saying he had recently gotten back from Afghanistan and yelling at my guys for their very poor treatment of a combat Veteran. When the question of what he did to the truck to break it again came up, he apparently told them that he was technically much more proficient than they were and as evidence of this, said he was a Harrier pilot.

As he had been caught in so many other lies during this conversation my guys let it go but when I debriefed them this morning, this one stuck out. The guy is US Army and I am not aware of any Army Harrier pilots anywhere, let alone in combat in Afghanistan.

Anyone have any thoughts on this???

Bill

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #2 12-10-07, 21:02

AFAIK, he's FoS - the Marines fly Harriers but not the Army. Even then, I can't say I've heard Harriers in-country; Darrell might be able to shed more light on this, but if push comes to shove I can have the answer for you lickety split from my mates on Tanknet.

Bill Murray · #3 12-10-07, 21:09

Thanks Jif:

That he is FOS is beyond question based on what my lads had to say. He is trying to contact me by phone today and I would love to blow his story to bits so if you can get a confirm on that question, I would appreciate it.
Might as well ask them if we are using Harriers in Iraq too as he may have forgotten what sort of Vet he is as well.
Bill

Darrell Zinck · #4 12-10-07, 21:35

Hi Bill

As far as I can say; he's FoS.

Everyday I went to the Sector South West Commander's Brief and the "Boys in Blue" (from various coalition nations) stood up to say their bit about Air Support available in-country (and to our Sector). Never once did I hear US and Harrier mentioned. All a/c off-shore was US Navy and definately not Harriers. Of all the in-country a/c I saw and heard about, never once did I see a US Harrier and certainly not a US Army Harrier.

There were Harriers in Kandahar during my time and they were all Royal Air Force (RAF).

Geoff is right; Marines (US variety) fly Harriers, not Army. US Army flies Helos and light Cargo a/c.

That's all I know but maybe it's changed since I returned 7 weeks ago!!

regards
Darrell

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #5 12-10-07, 21:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Darrell Zinck
That's all I know but maybe it's changed since I returned 7 weeks ago!!

LMAO! Since when have you known ANY army, let alone the U.S. Army, to change ANYTHING that fast?!

Bill Murray · #6 12-10-07, 22:37

Thanks my Friends:

No need to chew on this one any longer as you have confirmed my suspicions to a degree suitable for me to bury this clown in his own doo-doo.
Cheers
Bill

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #7 12-10-07, 23:10

Basically, it boils down to this: The US Army won't touch anything that's NIH*, while Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, despite their reputation as Jarheads, will use anything that works - and the Harrier works.

Even then, I don't know how many of them, if any, are in either war zone; as has been the case for many decades now, the USAF is pretty protective of their CAS role (not terribly good at it, at times, but a minor thing like that never stopped them from missing wider).

With the current state of the WoT, even birds they were planning on standing down (such as the A-10) have had their service lives extended indefinitely, and the USMC Harriers probably fall into that category too; but they may be holding them in reserve instead of expending airframes in combat which the fast movers can handle.

*Not Invented Here

Tony Smith · #8 13-10-07, 12:45

Just as a cultural point: Do the US Marines refer to their Aircraft as Harriers or as AV-8B's? It is almost an institutional truth that Americans refer to their equipment as a number/letter combinations, while the British have proper names. I think this would catch out a true vet, although more recently names are starting to appear for US equip (ie Hummer, Abrams, etc).

Bill Murray · #9 13-10-07, 14:18

They call them Harriers, Tony.
I think our Naval Services have always had a tendency to call items of war by their name instead of by their inventory number.

A Springfield was a Springfield, an M1 was a Garand, an F4 was a Corsair etc. etc. Same holds true for ships. Civilians don't know what a BB is but they do know what the USS Missouri is.

Bill

Tony Smith · #10 13-10-07, 14:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Civilians don't know what a BB is but they do know what the USS Missouri is.

Bill

That's the point I was suggesting. Civilians may call them Harriers, but the actual Flight Crews? If your Walter Mitty is using a Civvy name for the plane, would that say anything?

Bill Murray · #11 14-10-07, 16:33

I don't think so, Tony.

Harrier is part of the vernacular now.
Not to confuse the issue, but my example is not 100%, regarding the Navy.

For some reason, we Yanks still refer to an F-14 as that instead of a Tomcat, an F-16 as that instead of a Falcon and the F-18 as that instead of a Hornet.

Tomcat sort of made it into the vernacular, I think they were used in the film "Top Gun", but I doubt if hardly any civilians could tell you what a Falcon or a Hornet are with any degree of accuracy.

In any case, the customer has not come back nor has he called back so I may never get to call his bluff.
Bill

alleramilitaria · #12 14-10-07, 22:51

from open news sources
right now there are not suposed to be any USMC combat forces in AF, all the forces the USMC has are deployed in iraq. there is a posible plan to have the 25,000 moved to AF and the 26,000 army troops switched to iraq. that would make iraq a all army show and af a 80% marine show.

also the clock on the AV-8B is running down. the JSF is being built right now and the vert takeoff version is due to replace the harrier soon.

dave d

Bill Murray · #13 14-10-07, 23:17

Thanks for the input, Dave.

And, as the owner of a large retail establishment in Atlanta, GA, I sure hope the JSF gets some legs pretty soon.

While not a whole lot of the action will go on here at Lockheed's Dobbins AFB plant, there will be enough to keep a lot of people busy for a long time. The C130 business is very cyclical and we need a long term project like the JSF.

I am not a WarBird guy but the concept of that aircraft seems to make sense to me in that maybe we might be able to have a multi-task aircraft that will at least to a degree be acceptable to all arms of our military instead of the smorgasbord approach we have had in the past with all of those "Designer Aircraft" as I call them that are unique to very small segments of each Services needs.

Regarding your other comment, I hope that CMC gets his wish and that the Army and USMC swap places. The Marines have been all over Counter Insurgency warfare for years and if left to their own devices are very, very successful. Many have forgotten, but they were doing this in Viet Nam with their Hamlet Pacification program and it worked exceedingly well. Didn't fit in with the Army's Search and Destroy tactical plan so it went by the wayside.

In Iraq, same thing happened, they did their Counter Insurgency thing and then got run over by the Army yet again.

I am going to California on Tuesday for the dedication of a High School named after my Father, General Dad, and there is a Reception planned at the Camp Pendleton Officer's Club so maybe I can get some Intel as to how the current crop of Active Duty and Retired Generals on the West Coast see this thing playing out.

Not to get too political, but I would like to see us resolve at least one of these two conflicts successfully. I am afraid I do not see Iraq turning out very well.

Bill

alleramilitaria · #14 14-10-07, 23:58

bill
a little backround, 21 years army 4 wars, both desert storm and OIF, i live here at ft hood and have friends call me from iraq every once in a while.

while in iraq when left alone tha army was doing a great job at cleaning out areas and letting the locals do there job. the thing was we were 3 years late in building a proper iraqi army (ICDC sucked). but now we are winning, and everyone now sees proof of that... even the trator john murtha.

the problem was when the USMC came to town they screwed everything up. iraq is not a war, its not a civil war. the problem is that there are other countries trying to pit the iraqies agenst each other and the vast amount of the time it is not working.
sometimes yes, most times no.

the surg is working, no mater how you slice it vilonce is down.

sunies by the thousands are joining the army and police.

the iraqi army is now able to conduct infantry and armor combat patroles on there own, soon they will have a air wing to call on.
the navy will be on its own in about a month.

we need the marines out of iraq, they only do 6 month tours. the army 12-15 months. they dont have time to build up contacts and ties to the iraqies like we did and so sometimes shoot first and move out. then the army has to come in and smooth things over.

about the JSF
remember that some of the do everything AC in the past have been big flops, and some of the designer AC have become the best multi rol ac ever.

dave d.

Bill Murray · #15 15-10-07, 01:56

Hi Dave:

I am truly sorry that I upset you so much.

By and large the MLU Forum is pretty non political and I think this is where our exchange is heading, at least in the sense of differing opinions of how to wage a modern conflict.

As such, I suggest we refrain from commenting further here on the Forum directly but I would welcome the opportunity to discuss the matters we have opened via email or via the PM function.

May I also apologize to our fellow members for offering opinions that strayed from the original post I made.

My bad.
Bill

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #16 15-10-07, 02:11

No worries, mate, you haven't gone too far - discussions like these lead inevitably to off-shoots as they meander about. I just don't want to dedicate any one topic purely to political shitstorms, that's all - while that may be the purvue of other forums, time has shown it's largely out of place here. Comments are something else altogether.

I repeat, no worries!

Jif

Bill Murray · #17 15-10-07, 02:18

Thanks for your mentoring, Jif:

I did get out of line, you know some of the background.

I am sure that Dave and I can handle our debate on another level than here on the Forum.

Cheers.

Bill

alleramilitaria · #18 15-10-07, 02:33

no no no
im not upset, not at all

im just stating some facts from smoeone who has been there thats all, i encurage debate as long as its constructive.

its just that im tired of hearing typical BS from people that only hear the news from (you are not included in this group), well the news.

now that we have BBC america i was truly offended about what they have to say... 80% of that is just made up.

like the covarage of the blackwater shootings, all that they are saying is that 11-17 civilians were killed. they dont say that 2 of there trucks had to be towed out of the battle area due to being shot up.

ok?
and if i offended im sorry
dave