Truck identification

[Attilio]

What is this truck?

Thanks

Attilio

[Nick Balmer]

Hello,

I think it is a Morris C8 anti tank gun portee.

Wheels & Tracks No 30 has a good article on these vehicles, which was designed to carry a 2 Pdr antitank gun.

Regards

Nick Balmer

[Attilio]

Thanks!

Where i can find Wheels and Trucks?

I have purchased one issue some year ago but today i am unable to find the site of the magazine in the net.

Thanks

Attilio

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Attilio
Where i can find Wheels and Trucks?

It's called Wheels and Tracks...

Check here..
http://www.cmvmag.co.uk/cgi-bin/show...heelsandtracks

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Nick Balmer
Hello,

I think it is a Morris C8 anti tank gun portee.

Wheels & Tracks No 30 has a good article on these vehicles, which was designed to carry a 2 Pdr antitank gun.

Regards

Nick Balmer

And W&T 33 has the article on the CMP Portee.

[Attilio]

Thanks!

Attilio

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

See threads:

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ghlight=portee

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ghlight=portee

I believe it's a C.S.8/AT anti-tank.

[Attilio]

I need some explanations about the Morris portee.

According to David Hayward:

1) the original 2 pounder portee was based on the Morris 4x2 CS8 chassis

2) the Morris 4X4 C8/MG was derived from C8/QUAD field artillery tractor

3) the Morris C8/AT 2 pounder portees very similar to the Chevrolet FAT derivatives

On the contrary in the book of Vanderveen the author stated that the Morris Commercial C8/AT was a C8/MG modified to gun tractor.

Was the Morris C8/AT effectively an derived from C8/MG?

The vehicle in the photo of tank museum that i have posted here is more similar to the C8/MG. The shape of the mudguards (three piece flat) is very different from that of Morris CS8


This is an Indian Morris C8/MG

[Attilio]

On the contrary this is a Morris CS8 portee (with bofors 37 mm)

Any comment is appreciated

Thanks

Attilio

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

On the contrary in the book of Vanderveen the author stated that the Morris Commercial C8/AT was a C8/MG modified to gun tractor.

This is a subject that can really confuse and yet the answers are now to hand. I stand to correction, and am sure I will be, but basically the Morris-Commercial C.S.8T 15-cwt pick-up was built in three early 4 x 2 versions, and various bodies were designed for the basic chassis including cavalry portee. Subsequently Morris Commercial Cars used Continental technology as a basis for their short-lived 'Q' for 'Quad' 4 x 4 system, with front or rear engines, using shafts to each wheel. These were not accepted by the War Department for series production and so MCC developed a 4 x 4 version by 1938 of the C.S.8T as a field artillery tractor, two being built, which were in fact the C.S.8T/FWD to Contract V.3215 of 9 February 1938.

If I may then cheat and quote from my own notes:

It is pertinent here to explain that various companies had produced to WD order 4 x 4 armoured cars and artillery tractors that were linked: Guy Motors Limited of Wolverhampton with their Quad-Ant and ‘wheeled light tank’ [‘w.l.t..’] which was later called the 'Armoured Car'; Rootes group-owned Karrier with their KT4 artillery tractors and Humber armoured cars Mks 1 to IV that were the successors to the Guy w.l.t., Morris Commercial Cars Limited of Birmingham with their Q Armoured Car and QW [for ‘Winch’] gun tractors, and Alvis-Straussler. The Morris-Commercial QW and first appeared in 1938 in two versions: front-engined for FAT [QW] and rear-engined [Q] for armoured vehicles; the WD acquired 16 Q-series vehicles under Contract V.3246. These 4 x 4 chassis owed and shared nothing or very little with the 15-cwt. 4 x 2 trucks such as the MCC C.S.8 . Guy Motors had in 1937/8 used components from the w.l.t. to create the lead Quad-Ant and started production of their Tractor that could tow the 25-pounder, and MCC followed on behind. The WD specified four-wheel, all-wheel drive with weather-protected seating for the six-man crew detachment plus stowage for ammunition and battery stores. On the sloping back panel it would carry either a spare gun wheel or the gun-firing platform. The tractor would also tow a limber as well as the gun. Guy had a small production capacity and so Morris Commercial Cars Limited in Adderley Park, Birmingham were approached to put a very similar tractor in production, and this was later followed by Karrier. Just ten Morris-Commercial QW tractors were built plus 6 rear-engined Q chassis for armoured cars that had not compared well with Guy’s w.l.t. However, a cart-sprung conventional type with rigid axles was approved for production as the Morris-Commercial C.8/FWD FAT and production commenced in 1939 under contract V.3539 on 29 November 1939. This was followed by another contract V.3576 on 3 January 1940. The MCC C.8/FWD FATs used a 4-cylinder side valve 3519 c.c. 24.8 h.p. unit. The Morris Q series on the other hand used 26.8 h.p. 6-cylinder 3,745 c.c. o.h.v. engines producing 97 b.h.p., comparable in capacity and output with the Chevrolet 6-cylinder. The Guy ‘Quad Ant’ was ordered to Contact V.3372 in September 1939, and equipped with Meadows 4ELA engines.

The two prototype C.S.8/FWD tractors differed substantially from the production MCC tractors but they were the direct ancestors. Note the different designations as the prototypes [C.S.8/FWD] used a 6-cylinder engine, whereas the production FAT C.8/FWD etc. had a 4-cylinder engine.

Another derivative of the CS.8 4 x 2 was the C8/MG Mobile Gun followed by the C8/AT 2-pounder gun portee. The former had three-piece flat mudguards, whereas the FATs had round mudguards. The /MG and /AT models became obsolete in British service by 1943 and although a large number were sold to New Zealand, many were rebuilt along with the basically similar C.8/P Predictor trucks to C.8/AT Mark III 17-pounder tractors or the airportable version, by MCC at Adderley Park, Birmingham.

The real answer was therefore that the C.S.8T formed the loose basis for derivative 4 x 4 chassis, with the /MG and /AT portees using standard WD-design bodies of which detailed drawings were sent to Canada. Guy designed their Quad-Ant from the 15-cwt 4 x 2 Ant, the C.S.8T rival, and because Guy Motors could not cope with the WD demand for FATs MCC was contracted to build a very similar outline version which was loosely based on the C.S.8T through the wooden-bodied prototype C.8/FWD. In my opinion it was really a case of multiple divergent evolution, and not a strict sequential model development.

As I said, Canada received and binned the pre-war WD 2-pounder drawings. A short time later the WD shipped a MCC C.8/FWD and a Guy Quad-Ant to Ottawa with detailed drawings representing the 4 x 4 FAT design. These were then taken up by GM of Canada with Ford of Canada, and begat the C-GT and then the F-GT. Note I believe that it was this way round! However the 2-pounder drawings were pulled out of the bin and subsequently the DND agreed to a request for a British order for 2-pounder portees and GM of Canada accepted the contract and adapted their C-GT chassis to take a copy of the WD body with a modified #12 open cab which became the # 42 cab. The Portee chassis were interspersed with C-GT chassis on the line in batches though I believe that they lacked the C-GT winch? Comparing serial numbers shows no difference: they had the same model number. It is just possible that Oshawa even converted built-up C-GTchassis on the line. When the Chevrolet 2-pounder portees became obsolete, those not sold to New Zealand were rebuilt, probably by GM Limited in England, to 17-pounder A/T tractors whereas the later # 43 cab C60L 6-pounder portees were rebuilt as G/S trucks with a modified # 43 cab.

This thread has some more information:

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...rriscommercial

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

These are my known 1941 Model chassis:

11844010482
1844012843
1844012961[PORTEE?]
>>>>>>A/TANK PORTEE 1844013289 ENGINE # XR3,709,130 PAINT F.C.98 [IN N.Z.]
1844013828
1844013951
1844013992
1844014026
1844021385 ENGINE # XR3,735,940
1844024391
1844024637
1844024806
1844024849
1844025071
1844025194
1844025305 ENGINE # XR3,742,940
1844025673
1844025958
1844026425 ENGINE # XR3,756,023 BODY 2868
1844026589
1844031322
1844031330
>>>>>84-40X2 A/TANK PORTEE 1844031352 ENGINE # XR3,759,384 PAINT FC98 [IN N.Z.]
1844031394
>>>> 84-40X2 1844031433 A/TANK PORTEE ENGINE # XR3,757,180 PAINT FC98 [IN N.Z.]
1844031565 [PORTEE?]
1844031586 [PORTEE?]
1844031599
1844031619
1844031681
1844031703
1844031706
1844031799
>>>>>1844031825 A/TANK PORTEE ENGINE NUMBER XR3,742,886 # L4595318 NOVEMBER 21 1941
>>>>>1844031840 A/TANK PORTEE ENGINE NUMBER XR3,742,962 # L4594778 [NOVEMBER 21 1941]
1844031842[PORTEE?]
1844031932
>>>>>1844032663 ENGINE # XR 3,757,585 BODY SERIAL 3655 PAINT FC98 [IN N.Z.]
1844078896
1844081674

See where the KNOWN Portees intersperse. However some of the above may also have been Portees of course.

2. Known and possible Portee chassis:

1844013289 ENGINE # XR3,709,130
1844012961[PORTEE?]
1844031352 ENGINE # XR 3,759,384
1844031433 ENGINE # XR3,757,180 S/M 2028
1844031565 [PORTEE?]
1844031586 [PORTEE?]
1844031825 ENGINE NUMBER XR3,742,886 S/M 2028 # L4595318 NOVEMBER 21 1941
1844031840 W.D. # L4594778 ENGINE # XR3,742,962 S/M 2028
1844031842 [PORTEE?]
1844032663 ENGINE # XR3,757,585

Example of build plate:

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
MADE IN GM CANADA
OSHAWA WALKERVILLE REGINA
MODEL 84-40x2
SERIAL 1844013289
ENGINE 3709130 BODY SERIAL 606
TRIM XR PAINT F.C.98
On another brass plate:
Contract no V.4229, Supply Mech 2028.

Note that the Ministry of Supply placed two contracts: V.4229 was a domestic one, and the overseas order was S/M 2028, the same as for C-GT tractors.

Further, when the Portees were rebuilt to 17-pounder tractors the Census Number prefix changed from 'L' as a 3-tonner truck chassis, to 'H' as a 'tractor'. The C-GT chassis retained the 'H' prefix throughout unless anyone knows of any being rebuilt?

[Attilio]

Thanks for your informations!

I have a further question:

In a previous thread Shane Lovell

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...=morris+portee

reported this document:
AWM 54: 425/116
Australian LO Report No 21 dated 14 May 1941

I asked whether Aust units would receive Morris 4 wheel drive Portees. BRA indicated that they are unsatisfactory and that British units were to be equipped with 3-ton vehicles converted for Portee, on the basis of five per troop. In view of this disappointing situation regarding Morris Tractors it is suggested that we examine also the problem of converting 3-ton vehicles for Portee purposes. Our immediate requirement is of course the refit of 1 A.Tk Regt on a 36 gun basis.

David, do you think that the Morris 4 wheel drive mentioned in this report was the C8/MG?

Thanks

Attilio

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I believe you may be right Attilio...probably C.8/AT though.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

It appears as though the earlier C.8/MG Mobile Gun hd no winch, whereas the /AT portee had ramps to load the 2-pounder.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have just found out in my notes on the DND papers that you might just find interesting:

On 19 August 1938, Colonel NO Carr wrote a Memorandum to the DEOS, recommending that a body be purchased as a sample to govern production in Canada, at an estimated cost of $500 for a 2-pdr. Anti-Tank Gun portee as well as two bodies at an estimated cost of $1,000 each for the Ford and Chevrolet 6-wheeled Field Artillery Tractors, and finally two Norton motorcycles at $750. The same day, Deputy Minister LaFleche had a message radioed to the High Commission in London asking if delivery of the body for the portee, the two bodies for the 6-wheelers, and the Nortons could be delivered prior to 31 March following [1938], and if so, could they arrange the placing of the orders immediately; the covering WD Requisitions would be forwarded. ....

....The two bodies for the 6-wheeled FATs seem to have arrived in May 1938, and distribution thereof had been arranged. The body for the 2-pdr. Anti-Tank gun tractor was also received and was held at the H.Q. Depot in Ottawa awaiting disposal. However, Carr asked for the body to be retained at the Depot for the time being.......

It was also envisaged that some of the 51 1938 Chevrolet 15-cwt G/S trucks were to be utilised as A/T Portees!

The body drawings for the Cavalry Portee were entitled ‘body No. 1 Mk. II Schedule S (V) 339', spread over seven sheets. It appears as though the Portee file was under reference H.Q. 38-72-316, Clive, and complied with WD Specification 36B Parts I & IIC.

Does anyone know who actually built the Chevrolet 2-pdr Portee bodies by any lucky chance please?

As an aside and I shall move this bit when the new thread starts, WD Specification 36-B with part II.C was ‘For a 4-wheeled chassis for use as a military load-carrier of 15-cwt. capacity’. Body Specification M.C. 205-A was for ‘M.T. [Motor Transport] Vehicles-Bodies for- General Specification’. The drawing was S(V)411 - Mk. III Body. The Drawing for the Mounting under the body (D.D. (V) 355 )was for ‘Truck, 15-cwt., 4-wheeled, GS Arrangement showing mounting of Marks I and II bodies on Morris-Commercial C.S.8T, Commer ‘Beetle’ and Guy ‘Ant’ chassis’. These were then copied and retained by the DND. So if you wondered why the 15-cwt CMPs had similar bodies to the 15 cwt MCC C8T Series III, Guy Ant et al, well as per the Portee bodies the DND had the detailed specs and drawings to hand.