Ad Hoc Get-Togethers

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Since I replied to Chris Vickery in the BB thread about a possible North Bay get-together, I've been mulling over the whole concept, all day. Methinks the issue is more complex than I made it out to be.

I'll reproduce what I said, to start:

......I welcome and will recognize and support any individual effort made by any of our membership to establish a show in their own stomping grounds mirroring the CC/BB operations. The requirements are loose but simple: that it not clash with any other show(s) which potential participants might attend; that proper accommodation and hygiene facilities be provided; that any necessary permits from local government(s) be obtained; that insurance issues be covered, either by the person(s) putting on the gathering or by the participants themselves; that the sale or consumption of alcohol to or by the vehicle drivers during the event be regulated while during the time when vehicles might be driven.

Common sense, most of it. Start small and build up - much more easily handled if kept within the 'family' until you're established (hell, I'm probably preaching to the converted, but what the hell). In any case, I'm sure others who have embarked upon this road will be happy to help with advce they've learned the hard way!

I wrote from the simplistic perspective of a prospective show looking for MLU endorsement; certainly in that case, I think the basic conditions outlined above do make sense, in terms of keeping all of us out of hot water.

But what defines a 'get-together'? In past, it's always started with a few buddies getting together to tell lies, swap stuff, maybe go out for a drive and then drink a whole lot of beer, eat BBQ'd steak or burgers and tell some more lies. Does this need to be formally organised as above? Beyond the no-brainer stuff, methinks not... after all, what could be simpler than some pals getting together for beer and a BBQ, with a liberal helping of CMPs on the side?

Where things might get complicated is when relatively unknown people start getting involved. Where MLUers might be a known entity through interaction with others on the forum, new blood is an unknown entity, perhaps requiring a bit more of a kid-gloves approach.

The same thing stands for parades through populated areas, or in the event spectators choose to polk around. We certainly welcome the latter to a degree, but how far does our responsibility extend?

Am I right or wrong here, and in either case, how?

In the nine years since I started MLU, we have seen the CMP market explode right across the world. Not that the trucks and their owners weren't there before (they were), but we as enthusiasts are far more focussed than we we were then, it seems.

I will repeat my introductory quoted statement that MLU will stand by anyone wanting to emulate the CC and BB exercises, perhaps - nay, inevitably - with their own unique wrinkles thrown in. Experience has shown you don't need to be a 'club' for this to work, and as has been done in past, MLU stands as your umbrella organisation and as your outlet for publicity beyond your own website or anything else you may come up with. Fair enough?

Now, I would appreciate your comments on this whole subject, as it seems this trend towards smaller, private operations may be spreading. Hurrah for that! It's about bloody time, I say. How can we make this as seemless and painless as possible for those wishing to take that step?

Over to you, my friends. Be as open as you wish.

Thanks,

Jif



PS: If anything I've said has offended anyone, I apologise - that was not my intent.

[mike mckinley]

hello Geoff

this is a hell of a good topic to discuss indeed, and if my comments offend anyone, they aren't meant to. before i got into military vehicles, i was heavily involved with motorcycles..infact, one night i counted all the ones i had owned, built, restored, and the number was 88 in total. of course when one has a hobby one tends to hang with those with a like mindset, usually a club of some sort. this never worked out because of the snobbery, politics, and exclusion by the "perfectionists" of the rest of us, who were having some fun. isn't the purpose of a hobby to have some fun? when i got a bit older and got involved with the mv's, the internet was new down here in new brunswick. i found out two things rather quickly, the internet made networking with fellow hobbiest's much easier, and the people with whom i had met over the web were the genuine article. there seemed to be no limits to the lengths these people would go to help someone out. this is testament and examples can be found in any forum on this website. i personally have no problem with any club, but, i have found that keeping things casual as in the spirit of the cc or bb events is the best way to go as it dispences with the above mentioned " club things" which can ruin the whole thing. my next point is that this forum allows all of us, from australia to norway to communicate and help/ entertain each other.....something no club i know of can do.
as for ground rules at events, yes, everyone needs to be careful and for several reasons. we live in a world today where lawsuits are as common as brushing ones teeth. we work with heavy machinery, which can be dangerous even when not in motion. i'm thinking here of the people who see a bunch of army trucks lined up and stop for a look. people are naturally attracted to our old trucks because you gotta love anything that ugly. the problem is the tailgate that opens and smucks someones kid on the head, or someone falling out of the back of a deuce...which they shouldn't have been in in the first place. if we get to the point where these shown are by invite only, we exclude everyone else, which we don't want to do. if we have to place a sentry at every vehicle, the fun is gone. roping the vehicles off is what you see in a museum and detracts from the learning/ drooling process, so we are left with " this is an enter at your own risk" event, or paying heavy premiums for insurance incase something happens, which is no fun either. in the case of an event on private property, you enter at your own risk, and if the event grew in numbers it wouldn't be difficult to make visitors sign a waiver. for public displays, be sure you have the coverage. nobody want anyone to get hurt, but anything can happen anywhere at anytime.
drinking at driving is an absolute no no. both jeff caldwell and myself are volunteer firefighters, and we see the outcome of drunk drivers and it's not pleasant. if you want to get hammered, have at it, but give your keys to someone to ensure you stay put. personally, and jeff can attest to this, i have put bob and doug mackenzie to shame with my beer drinking antics at their events, but there has never, nor will there ever be a problem. i went there to be with some very good friends, to meet some new friends, and to have a good time...safely. all it takes is one accident to tarnish our hobby, and we don't need that. we are the caretakers of our history, and our vehicles have a story to tell. with the use of some common sense, hopefully the hobby will prosper. one final thought...i wonder if bill gregg, bart vanderveen, or peter ford ever imagined that this hobby would grow, and generate the interest that it does today? all for now
mike

p.s. i can't make the cc this year, but i know everyone will have a great time....with the calibur of company that will be present, how could one not?

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Jif..
MLU is the "Umberella" that we all gather up under and thank you very much for starting and maintaining it..
Who would have thought after you, your son ,and I made those first day postings on this forum that we would have gone where we are today..
MLU is the number one "Organization" we all communicate through and the word gets out..That is the prime nugget of gold in the MLU information mine...
I doubt if we would catch as many fish with a Structured organization as we do now..and who needs more responsibility that we all have now..
I think MLU is just fine for what it is and what it provides..a forum for information and ideas..and announcements at appropriate times and places..
We all have a life and more organizational responsibilities are not for me...
I thank you again for hosting and maintaining MLU and hope to see you again this summer at BBB2..but It's to early for me to commit ,being on baby watch for my daughter in Chicago..

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Alex Blair
...... I doubt if we would catch as many fish with a Structured organization as we do now..and who needs more responsibility that we all have now..
I think MLU is just fine for what it is and what it provides..a forum for information and ideas..and announcements at appropriate times and places..
We all have a life and more organizational responsibilities are not for me...

Alex,

Perhaps you misunderstood me... I am NOT proposing we cast anything into stone and certainly do not advocate turning MLU into the kind of hierarchical organisation Mr. McKinley has described. I too like it the way it is, thank you! All I was ruminating on was keeping all of us more or less on the same track as we seem to be expanding our influence.

A formalized structure would be the antithesis of that and a lot of extra work for everyone. And I for one am the laziest bastard I know...

Jif

[mike mckinley]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Alex,

Perhaps you misunderstood me... I am NOT proposing we cast anything into stone and certainly do not advocate turning MLU into the kind of hierarchical organisation Mr. McKinley has described. I too like it the way it is, thank you! All I was ruminating on was keeping all of us more or less on the same track as we seem to be expanding our influence.

A formalized structure would be the antithesis of that and a lot of extra work for everyone. And I for one am the laziest bastard I know...

Jif

i agree, that's why i brought up some of the points above. i think what exists today is working fine, and i thank you and the moderators for it. when events do come up, there has never been a problem advertising it, and i can't imagine reaching a larger audience any other way. a law of nature is that things will evolve, sometimes in the wrong direction. not saying that is happening here, it's a good idea to put things in check when required. as i said before, we are the embassidores of this hobby, and the history that goes along with it, and we certainly don't need any dark clouds hovering over us.

mike

[chris vickery]

Personaly, when myself and John Adamiak started the West End Meet in Acton, it was an informal get together by invitation only.
As it grew over a couple years, we opened up the invitation to whomever was interested. Having said this, I know for myself I would be more inclined to keep it as an invitational only event. Keep it small with a few of your best like mined friends and it limits your troubles. Afterall, it's easier to tell your friends they're being a**holes than it is a bunch of unknown guests.
I am not trying to be a snob or piss anyone off, nor make anybody feel unwelcome but in todays world thats the way it is.
As it grew and more strangers appeared, we had people sign a standard liability waiver to protect both John and myself. Those who were not so inclined politely asked to do so or leave.
On the last occassion, prior to John's passing, we did have an unfortunate incident during a trailride.
We were on privately owned property, loaned us with permission for our trail ride. Well, needless to say, a fellow who was trespassing tangled with an UC and you can guess who the winner was. Luckily for us, the trespasser went to hospital with relative minor injuries and a host of fines from the local constabulary. I used my diplomatic touch to keep the heat off the convoy and remarkably none of the participants even had a second look from the cops. In the end though, the land owner cancelled any further usage due to his own insurance liability issues, all this caused by someone who was not even involved with us.
Aside from these serious issues there are also the ones that tick off even the most easy going fellow. Remember that these events costs the hosts a whack of cash and therefore the couple bucks requested for a dinner per se should not be looked upon by the attendees as being a tacky or cheap request. Afterall there is plenty of work involved from buying groceries, to setting up tents, tables BBQs etc, cooking and on and on. Personally I really applaud those of us who go the extra mile to put on such affairs.

[RHClarke]

Originally posted by chris vickery

Aside from these serious issues there are also the ones that tick off even the most easy going fellow. Remember that these events costs the hosts a whack of cash and therefore the couple bucks requested for a dinner per se should not be looked upon by the attendees as being a tacky or cheap request. Afterall there is plenty of work involved from buying groceries, to setting up tents, tables BBQs etc, cooking and on and on. Personally I really applaud those of us who go the extra mile to put on such affairs.

Chris, You speak of the minority, but all it takes is one incident to spoil an event. By in large, the Hammond BB series has been blessed with no injuries and we intend to keep it that way. Quirky personalities are welcomed as long as those personaities embrace safety as the paramount consideration. Consideration for the host should rank a close second.

It takes all sorts to make a hobby a success and we have seen plenty of personalities come and go in this neck of the woods. For those who embrace the hobby and contribute to it, I salute you. Come on out to Hammond this summer and take advantage of Bob's hospitality and sense of humour. A good, safe time will be had by all, or you answer to our wives!

For directions to Hammond go to the search feature and type in "Where the Hell is Hammond" or click on: http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...ll+is+hammond.

[Robert Dabkowski]

Since both of these topics have arisen at roughly the same time, I take it as a sign from whatever god that there is, that MLU is destined to have it's first 'meet & greet' just southwest of Angus, Ontario, sometime later this summer/fall.

There is a (apparently since I have yet to see it with my own eyes) refurbished museum full of HMVs to see/tour (rain or shine) and the Base is well placed to those MLUers centered on Chatsworth, Orillia, Barrie, Toronto, Kitchener, Rockwood, Guelph and Oshawa, Ontario.

There should still be lots of time to avoid a conflict with the OMVA's Fall event as I understand that this is being arranged for somewhere out near Ottawa, in October, I believe. So we should be able to attract lots of HMVs from that mob as well as those of our loyal readers here at MLU.

If 'we' pick a non-conflicting date AND begin to advertise it, NOW.

Invitations to the new Iltis owners clubs springing up all over sothern Ontario should help to put that new MV generation in touch wih their historic 'roots' as well.

All that is needed, **JIFF**(hint, hint) , is SOMEONE to 'get the ball rolling' and contact the Base Borden Museum AND Base Commander to see if such a meeting is possible, in wartime ? I can't see why not since they are a museum open to the public and what better way to show our support for the troops going overseas ? And maybe get free museum admission for us ?

The museum must already have washroom facilities and an MLU sponsored convoy or two rolling-in flying the red ensign would be good publicity for them too. If they have the time/troops to set up a fenced compound/gated area it might even be a fund raiser for the Museum as well, with gate fees from the public.

Or, rather than a formal event, we just all agree to show up at a certain time on a certain date, in HMVs or civilian cars and just tour the new facilities as a group ?

The only thing that I can see being missing is a food stand/beer tent or two and I'm sure that there would be operators available who would be willing to drive in and set-up for a day on the Base, near to the museum ? There is a base PX about 1/2 km away with a cafeteria, if all else fails but 'we' need to be sure that it will be open on whichever Saturday or Sunday that JIFF chooses for the event. And, is it licensed for other than CF personnel ?

What say you all ?

[Robert Dabkowski]

... in any ad-hoc Ontario MLU get-togethers judging by the thundering LACK of responses to this idea.

Oh well, at least I tried.

Sigh ...

[RHClarke]

[i]
All that is needed, **JIFF**(hint, hint) , is SOMEONE to 'get the ball rolling' [/B]

Robert,

While I laud your idea, I can't but wonder why you didn't get the ball rolling yourself...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by RHClarke
Robert,

While I laud your idea, I can't but wonder why you didn't get the ball rolling yourself...

Mr. Clarke, Esteemed Co-President of the World-Renowned Ottawa Rotters CMP and Beer Drinking Association,

I rather suspect Mr. Dabkowski did it this way in order to defer to me as SUNRAY; the prospect of lending the MLU name to such an endeavour would naturally require my endorsement throughout the process of organizing and executing such a rally.

********************

Mr. Dabkowski,

First of all, let me thank you for the thought which has gone into this, and I would like to take the opportunity to apologize for not getting back to you sooner.

I'm guessing that your lack of response has been in part due to the reason outlined above - after all, nothing set up under the aegis of MLU can happen without my initial and continuing concurrence!

Having said that, I'm of two minds with this. First, I agree that after nine years' of successful operations, it's high-time that MLU sponsor a mini get-together of its own. We have become a world-wide organization of which I am very proud; MLU's insignia and spirit appear across the face of the globe wherever and whenever two or more of us gather, and I can think of no greater vindication of what was a glimmer of an idea back in 1998.

And it can only get better.

The reservation I have is around the nature and scope of what will be MLU's first 'public' gathering. My original and prevailing thought was/is around something in the nature of the tremendous examples set by the organizers of the CC and BB events, and prior to that, John Adamiak's. Something on a smaller scale like those, with controlled attendance and a relaxing atmosphere in an appropriate environment dependent only upon the spirit of those who wish to participate.

While your CFB Borden idea is superb in concept, I also believe the scope of what you're suggesting is too grand for an initial, "official" MLU Gathering. The reasons behind my thoughts here are manyfold, starting with legal position, to insurance and liability, and beyond. Never mind the bureaucracy associated with your intended venue, and the time entailed in negotiating/arranging the activities you suggest!

No, Rob, I think I'm going to have to back away from your broad-brush, 'big-ticket' approach, at least for now. Instead, I heartily endorse the informal approach you've touched upon; we've done it before and can do again, with very little hassle.

And in the meantime, I shall devote my time to setting up something simpler which would dovetail in between existing events, and on similar lines.

I do thank you for your initiative though!

[RHClarke]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Mr. Clarke, Esteemed Co-President of the World-Renowned Ottawa Rotters CMP and Beer Drinking Association,

I rather suspect Mr. Dabkowski did it this way in order to defer to me as SUNRAY; the prospect of lending the MLU name to such an endeavour would naturally require my endorsement throughout the process of organizing and executing such a rally...I'm guessing that your lack of response has been in part due to the reason outlined above - after all, nothing set up under the aegis of MLU can happen without my initial and continuing concurrence!

Seen. That makes sense.

[Robert Dabkowski]

I stopped in today (July 19th) for a quick look 'round and was pleased by the museum progress that has been acheived.

Museum's posted hours are Mondays -Closed, Tuesday thru Friday 0900-1500, Saturday's & Sundays 1300-1600.

Vehicle building (southern most tank hanger) open with MVs ranging from horse drawn wagons thru a cut-away T-55.

Central tank hanger open with airplane scale models and a CF-5 fighter jet inside.

Attached small arms museum not to open for another two weeks yet.

New aircraft museum (under re-construction) being installed in several of the 1917 vintage airplane hangers over at the airfield flight line area.

Several ex-Cdn military aircraft still up on concrete plinths in different areas around the Base.

Ditto for many repainted (to weather-proof only - no historical markings nor historic colours used) ex-Cdn military vehicles and WW2 German artillery pieces.

Liked the Museum BUT ...

... ... ...

A very sad state of affairs for Canada.

But, the new Museum is good. Needs more artifact displays to be set-up inside but that will come as volunteers have the chance to put in more time & effort.

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Robert Dabkowski
Since both of these topics have arisen at roughly the same time, I take it as a sign from whatever god that there is, that MLU is destined to have it's first 'meet & greet' just southwest of Angus, Ontario, sometime later this summer/fall

What say you all ?

Robert, I would be most interested in a Base Borden get together. I have a lot of fond memories of time spent training there and the new museum sounds too good to miss. Might I suggest the "Hug and Slug" in Barrie as a meeting place LOL!
It would be a great opportunity to meet all y'all face to face. Only contingencies being getting my passport processed by those lazy @#%&* in Quebec and hooking up with somebody for a lift. I sent my application for a new passport May 5th and still haven't seen hide nor hair of it. I called the Canadian Consulate in Dallas only to be told they are months behind in processing them.
As an aside, might I reserve the initials TT for any possible future TEXAS TREK?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Rob,

I appreciate your up-to-the-minute STATREP on Borden, and needless to say, would love to see it again.

HOWEVER... I have invoked my executive privilege and edited the central part of your post for OPSEC reasons. No point in handing the BG's a roadmap, eh? I have saved the excerpt, and would recommend you contact the Borden CO to explain your concerns - if you want your post verbatim, I can send it to you.

I'm sure you understand, but I was frankly appalled to read that, not only because you have just proven it true ( ) but because it was such a clear pointer towards how to hurt us.

Make no mistake, we're in a state of war where the other side recognises no rules, with everything and everybody a potential target; thus we have to comport ourselves accordingly.

OK?

Right then, let's carry on, shall we?

Geoff

[Robert Dabkowski]

... was MUCH improved before I even left the Base, you can be sure.

Geoff, I am greatly 'hurt' that you think me to be so careless as to openly post any STILL sensitive security information on such a widely read public forum as this one is.

Censorship is an ugly thing, in any form. Especially in a supposedly free and democratic society such as we claim to have here in Canada.

Better to be 'safe than sorry', I guess, but ... your actions will discourage me from posting anything else even remotely interesting here, again. What's that old expression, "If you're not a part of the solution then you ARE a part of the problem" ?

Please be assured that BEFORE I left the confines of Base Borden yesterday I had already turned over a copy of my fresh video camera (lack of) security 'report' to the Base HQ office. And then after playing back said 1 hour tape for all interested officials at hand (most of whom spent much time studying the size of my truck parked just 8' away outside of the same conference room windows), took yet another truck drive (followed at a discrete distance by two cars full of MPs/Base command staff) to physically demonstrate all of my (lack of) security concerns.

Same results as during my first 1 hour drive-thru (notice please that I didn't type "drive-by" although it could easily have been), no security at all. Anywhere.

Sidearm equipped guard types (in groups) were already being posted at several (now closed) internal gates and barrier 10 ton trucks were being moved into blocking positions at several other areas as I left the Base for the return drive to Toronto.

To their credit, Base staff did NOT over-react nor close off museum access to the general public. Their response was appropriate, even if grossly too late.

The appearance was similar to that produced by poking a stick into an active bee hive. Bodies running eveywhere, at great speed, to only some limited apparent purpose. But the security situation got MUCH better, real FAST. They even put 2 (30 year old) choppers in the air although one landed, in a base parking lot, about ten minutes later and quickly shutdown right then & there.

I'm told that my truck seat video tape 'tour' (with my rather sarcastic voice-over commentary) will probably be used as a new 'what-if' training aid/example for all future security types posted to Borden.

And I'll bet that somebody there, justifiably, has their 'butt in a sling' this morning. It was a disgraceful episode.

Might just be 'fun' to try the same thing, but after dark, in a few weeks from now ? Just to see if the lads are all still 'awake' to the real threat. All on public highways, of course.

If a military training base can be so wide open, I can only imagine how exposed our entire civilian infrastructure networks must be.

Time to buy a generator and stock up on MREs, I guess.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

WELL DONE, THAT MAN!

Damned good to hear of the Base response, Rob. Yes, someone's getting their arse reamed today, you can bet on it.

Ref my action taken, I stand by my 0600 judgement. As the intel was presented, it was practically an invitation for the Timmies. I'll not put MLU at risk for any possible misinterpretation of any given SITREP.

Otherwise, Rob, I think we all owe you a debt of thanks for your prompt and proper response to a potentially dangerous situation.

I repeat, WELL DONE!

[Robert Dabkowski]

"Timmies" ?



And Geoff, considering that 'A-bomb' plans are available all over the internet along with any number of homemade 'kitchen table' recipies for high explosives, just what was so dangerous about the centre section of my initial sitrep ?

Do you not read the news nor watch television ? The 'bad guys' as you call them ARE ALREADY using the same techniques that I highlited, against our troops on the ground in Afghanistan.

Perhaps our biggest training base here in Ontario should begin to prepare our young men and women for the types of unconventional warfare threats that they WILL be facing once overseas ?

Those same 'bad guys' developed those techniques in the first place so you can be CERTAIN that they ALREADY know more about them than we, safe and secure here in Canada, ever will. I surely hope, anyway.

Only if our whole population is forewarned, can they be watchful for the threats facing us all. Playing 'ostrich' and keeping every threat secret just makes us all more vulnerable. And any surprise attack, all the more effective, publicity wise.

I agree that there is NO point at all in scaring everyone so badly that they can't sleep at night BUT our society DOES face real threats of violence from Al Quida (sp ?), the Taliban AND some of the more radical elements of our own, home grown, First Nations.

You certainly own the MLU site and thus can run it as you wish but I would ask that you think a little more deeply wrt this topic.

I would certainly much prefer to post only on past history and military vehicle topics but as you know, the current 'war on terror' is going to affect all aspects of every part of our military interest hobby 'universe'.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

The Bad Guys...

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Robert Dabkowski
And Geoff, considering that 'A-bomb' plans are available ........

Robert, I'm not going to debate this ad nauseum with you.

Simply speaking, I have, and will retain, the last word on anything that is posted on MLU under the aegis of my name. My reasons as stated should be clear enough for you. If you find this position disagreeable, you're welcome to post the information you did elsewhere; if I determine there's a potential OPSEC issue at-hand on MLU, I will take whatever action I deem necessary.

Geoff

PS: Neither will I permit the posting of 'A-bomb' plans or for that matter, pornography, 'because it's already available on the internet'.

You may consider this discussion closed.

GWB

[Robert Dabkowski]

... quite so hostile there Geoff.

As I already posted, "You certainly own the MLU site and thus can run it as you wish but I would ask that you think a little more deeply wrt this topic."

Obviously, you choose not to bother, as is anyone's right.

I had thought this topic might be one to prompt some current events discussions for/by MLU's members but it seems that such will not be allowed to proceed.

I must state that this is certainly the first time that I have ever received such high praise from AND then been 'invited to post elsewhere' by, the same individual, all on the same day ???

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

This discussion is closed, Mr. Dabkowski.

Thank you.