For Sale: Wapiti tracked vehicle

[Bob Phillips]

I have a large aluminum bodied snow machine , one of three built in the 1950s by the Ford Motor co for the CDN government. It has a 6 cylinder aluminium block bus engine, an english auto matic transmission (shiftless tran company or some such- built them for double decker buses) and a M24 type controlled diff in the front. Saved it from Levy's 25 years ago - a great project for someone with a BIG garage...any interest?? PM me or see me at Oshawa show...Bob Phillips

[ozm29c]

Hello Bob,
Sorry, I am not looking to buy however could you please post a photo of it? It certainly sounds like an interesting vehicle.
Good luck with your sale.
Cheers
John W.

[gordon]

I'd certainly like to see photos though.

Steve will doubtless point you at the M29C.com forum, and I have the Classic Sno-Cat Forum, at least a couple of places to look for someone to give it a good home.

Gordon

[Bob Phillips]

Thanks for the encouragement...will give it a try sometime as i have had no luck so far in posting pics. This is just the larger version of the other Canadian aluminum bodied machines. Was advertised at Levy's 30 years ago for $7500 and nobody was interested. It was scheduled to be flattened for its aluminium value. Has DC3 type cargo doors on both sides, flat front ) a Canadian trait like a 13 cab - sort of) and a large red maple leaf painted on either side. Also has the military marking of the era something like 53- XXXX

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Bob

Curious to see that beast....

...if you send it to my home address....rac1812 at aol dot com I will shrink to an acceptable size and post it for you.

...the other Bob

[Bob Carriere]

If my aging memory works I remember seeing that beast a few years ago.... she is a beauty...... big but very nice....... would be worth saving.....

Bob can fill in the details.

Bob

PS...playing with ACDC..... shocks look like civvy P/U truck shocks ... maybe even M37 shocks.... tracks must have been 18 to 20 inches wide..... double sprocket in front..... could not read the small tire size..... driven from the front sprocket... engine must be located midship or back two thirds for balance. ....would not take much to haul that to the barn.....hihihi

[Bob Phillips]

Thanks Bob for posting that picture. This creature has a rear mounted FAGEOL bus engine, aluminium block, 6 cylinder inline with an overhead cam and an ignition system that appears identical to a2.5 ton G749 GMC. Track was about 2.5 to 3 feet wide, just flat belting with aluminium cleats bolted across it. I got several boxes of spares with it including new track hardware. Transmission is midship - again an unusual English automatic transmission with airshifters on the controls, controlled diff up front. It has a double set of upright tillers for steering / maybe brakes? Inside lined with plywood in robins egg blue. Very calming! Tires are just implement type tires. It got pushed and pulled around the yard at Levy's until they went broke and then it was heading for scrap- but it was running and like new when they got it!

[Bob Carriere]

Fageol engines..... 6 cylinders.... were used by Twin Coach and used by the Winnipeg transit in early 50s...... the engine is referred to as a Hall Scott engine (gas, propane,diesel)

One of the Fageol owner was a racing boat ut and raced a 404 c.i. 6 cylinder rated at 275 HP......

.... and the Fageol history is intertwined with Peterbilt trucks......

Fageol trucks were also optionaly equipped with International and Waukesah engines over the years.

...wonder if it fits in the barn doors....... now where is my chain saw....??
....Rob and Grant are going to kill me......

Bob

[cletrac (RIP)]

I came across this on Canadian Soldiers.com Does anyone have access to these?

If anyones cares to look, Archives have some files on the Wapiti dating from 1949-59.
RG24, Series C-1-b , Accession 1983-84/048, Box 3430
File: S-7150-Wapiti,MT Vehicles,Reports & Returns Wapiti
also in the same series
Boxes 3346 and 3347
File: 7016-Wapiti, "Design, Development & Research - Vehicles - Wapiti - Generally"
They are however code 32 so one might have to wait a bit for ATIP to clear them.
Perhaps Longue Pointe's version was left over from some trials?

[Marc Montgomery]

thats pretty cool..I kinda remember having a photo of one in the old Convoy magazines in an issue dealing with snow machines....but i thought it had 20in tires..which this obviously doesnt...appears to have the same size as the penguins

I kinda remember one sitting at the Long Point base in Mtl..but it disappeared.?

[Ed Storey]

This is an image that I have of the Wapiti.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...htviewcopy.jpg

[Bob Phillips]

Great Picture Ed ! Thats the creature, including the red maple leafon the rear area and the numbers on the door. Can you read the number on the door? They are almost legible . I looked at my pictures again and they begin with 52 meaning 1952 and then several digits follow. I wonder if it is the same machine. I will dig out some old pictures and see if I can read the numbers on my machine...By the way what is the cable like apparatus on the front- tow cables perhaps??...Bob

[Bob Carriere]

.... I read on Bob's picture....

52 9xxx2 on Ed's picture 52 92341 or 52 92541

....I would gamble to say 52 92341 and one number higher for Bob's at xxx42

That would make them close cousins.....

Isn't insomnia great.....

Bob

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Been watching this thread with interest, what a terrific looking beast. Reminded me greatly of a childhood icon, the "Chariot" from lost in Space. However I have just done a bit of reminiscing with the aid of Google and my memories are a bit out.
We don't get much gear like this over here in Oz, so it is a bit of a treat to see these vehicles, hope that it finds a good home in the near future.
Rich.

[Ed Storey]

I agree with Bob on the numbers, both vehicles look like they are close cousins.

[Bob Carriere]

HI Ed

Behind the Wapiti....... is it towing a white ...light....maybe aluminium trailer ...... possibly on skis....?

Fascinating bit of kit it is....... would be a real big job to restore as I suspect the different metal combinations may have played havoc with the aluminium skin....i.e. dissimilar metal and chemical/electrical reaction.

Bob

[Bob Phillips]

Just a couple of comments about the old snow beast - I recall reading that three were built as protypes. This one has been tarped over for 25 years and I go religously every year and retarp it- consequently the top is all clean polished aluminium, paint all nicely cleaned off - below decks little evidence of serious corrosion except where water dripped through a window and rotted out some of the plywood. It is all aluminium below decks, the only serious piece of steel being the skid plate mounted out front ( sort of a belly pan ) and the two panels with dents are all flat alumimium so even an all thumbs gut should be able to cut and pop rivet new skin on. But yes - it is a big project.

[Bob Phillips]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

Bob- I remember there was a Wapiti parked in a small display area just inside the Longue Pointe base in east end Montreal..along with a couple other older MVs and an old M-109 howitzer. I remember thinking at the time it was a fairly big snow machine...at the time I had never seen one before.... This would have been late 1990;s?
When i finally found out what it was, I went back to Longue Pointe, but it was gone although the M-109 was still there.
No idea where it went...no one seems to know.

Here (I hope) are pictures of the surviving Wapiti, unless another turns in Quebec. Thank you for that lead Marc.

I bought this vehicle 30 plus years ago to save it from being scrapped. I did not know much about it at that time and it has only been through the assistance of members of this forum that I have been able to put together a more complete history of this vehicle. I would like to share just a few of the basic details with you.

[Bob Phillips]

So this vehicle was one of 3 prototypes authorized for development on Nov. 3 1947 by the Canadian military(AEPC). It is a 2.5 ton oversnow vehicle and was approved along with a similar 3/4 ton version (3 prototypes also) called the BEAVER Does anyone have pics of the Beaver?

Planning and construction began at General Motors in Set. 1948 with an initial allotment of $120,000 in funds. By July 1949 the contract with GM was terminated with only about 10% of the project being completed. This was done because GM was not seen as being very cooperative in this project,on a number of fronts including the fact that GM refused to deal with outside suppliers seeing them as competitors.This meant only GM parts would be used in the project which was not an acceptable option. In August 1949 the contract was awarded to the Ford Motor Company who built the machines at cost but with a 7.5% fee attached as their profit margin.

The vehicles has a 194 HP Fageol bus motor but unlike bus engines these were cast of aluminium. Cost per motor $6000 each. A variety of standard transmission were tried but the final version is one supplied from England, a Wilson preselect (semi automatic) transmission of the type used in buses.

[Bob Phillips]

The gearbox was ordered through Leyland Montreal.The vehicle has an airshifter which allows you to preselect each gear a bit like a Ferret car. The controlled differential was a custom designed and built but seems very similar to the M24 type diff in a Chaffee. Most major suspension components were made of aluminium & magnesium to reduce weight as is the hull and rivetted aircraft style body. The vehicle is rear engined with the diff in the front.

The first vehicle was delivered to DND in Dec 1952 while the last two were completed May 1953. Following extensive testing a number a material failures become apparent- the lighweight components, support brackets etc in the suspension were not up to the task. Even after a redesign the support brackets were ultimately made of stronger ferrous metals. With its hi compression engine starting and running in cold climates was a challenge and by the time the compression ratio was lowered the engine was deemed to be underpowered for the vehicle. The final recommendations for the vehicle included the installation of a 200-250HP V8 engine with an automatic transmission. This of course never occurred.

There were hope among the DND officials that the US would be interested in this oversnow vehicle but instead they went ahead with their own version ( the OTTER) which must have cost even more to develop and build.One of the documents I located suggest that a Continental air cooled engine (as per OTTER) would cost $22,000 each!! When the project finally concluded the total cost for developing and building the 3 Wapiti prototypes was $1,250,000.00. Don't forget that this was 1952-53 when you could buy a nice middle class home for a few thousand dollars!

This is a brief overview of what I have found. Please add any comments, pictures or information you might have to this story.

[Bob Phillips]

The 3 Wapiti prototypes vehicles were identified ( as were all MVs at the time- is this correct?) with a 7 numbers, the first 2 indicating year and last 5 identifying specific vehicle. There had been speculation in a previous post about the number on this vehicle vs one pictures posted by Ed Storey. The 3 prototypes (beginning with Ford VIN numbers W-101, W-102, and W-103) were numbered 52-92506, 52-92511 and 52-92512 respectively.

This was a large vehicle 19"3" long, 11'3" wide & 8'4" high. With a payload of 5000 lbs it grossed out at 23,500 pounds. This weight was evidently too heavy for many of the early components. While a tremendous effort was put into reducing the weight of the vehicle it was still too heavy for the magnesium and aluminium alloy components in the redesigned lightweight Muskrat suspension system (saving 360lbs per vehicle). There were also spring failures and problems with the aluminium case in the final drive. While many of theses problems were corrected by 1954 it was beginning to be apparent that there would be a limited role for machines as large as the Beaver or the Wapiti. Issues relating to air portability are mentioned a number of times in the correspondence.

When all done it was an expensive project but had many positive features: heated crew compartment with large accessible cargo type doors, double layered windows to reduce frosting, tow capability, radio installations in at least one prototype and a large cargo compartment for men or materials.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Bob, great background info on a rare vehicle.

I took the liberty merging your posts in the Penguin MkII thread with your earlier thread on the Wapiti, so all the available info on this vehicle can be found in one place.

Hanno

[charlie fitton]

Looks like a guy could live in there...

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Bob Phillips

...

There were hope among the DND officials that the US would be interested in this oversnow vehicle but instead they went ahead with their own version ( the OTTER) which must have cost even more to develop and build.One of the documents I located suggest that a Continental air cooled engine (as per OTTER) would cost $22,000 each!! When the project finally concluded the total cost for developing and building the 3 Wapiti prototypes was $1,250,000.00. Don't forget that this was 1952-53 when you could buy a nice middle class home for a few thousand dollars!

...

And I get the height of nationalist indignance heaped on me when I say the AVRO Arrow was too wretchedly expensive for the size of the defence budget of the day. Ditto for the Bobcat.

[Colin Alford]

I have found some Wapiti footage here:

http://images.nfb.ca/images/pages/en...84&docAttId=34

The footage starts at 3:00 and ends at 4:15.

The caption states that there is also footage of the Beaver but I don't believe that is the correct ID of the second vehicle. Footage starts at 8:35 until end of film.

Colin

[colin jones]

What a wonderful project. Am I right to assume that no one bought it to restore and it's still sitting in the same place. Such a shame it's not in Australia as that's a project I would love to do.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

I have found some Wapiti footage here:

http://images.nfb.ca/images/pages/en...84&docAttId=34

The footage starts at 3:00 and ends at 4:15.

The caption states that there is also footage of the Beaver but I don't believe that is the correct ID of the second vehicle. Footage starts at 8:35 until end of film.

Colin

Great footage. The Wapiti driver seems to have botched the corner first try.

That would be a great restoration project but I bet a bugger for getting parts and, well, it's so BIG!!!

[Kirk Armitage]

That would definitely be quite a project . Bob you should have unveiled this diamond in the rough 20 years ago, when we were all younger ! Bob, I posted a pic and mentioned its listing here, on a snow cat forum I belong to. There should be some interest , this machine needs to be saved.
K Armitage

[Robin Craig]

There is more footage of the undercarriage at the 8.40 mark I believe.

[Bob Carriere]

Excellent footage......

However, the Wapiti has 6 sets of road wheels while the last few seconds of the film shows the power train of a 4 set of road wheesl vehicle.... are they identical to the Wapiti?????