WTK: C6 Mounts for Iltis, Command and Reconnaisance & Other Mounts

[T. Alcorn]

Hello My Northern Brothers!
I am a former mortar crewman in the US Army, did half of my time with 81mms and 4.2in before transitioning to 120mm the last 6 mos of my 2nd enlistment.
I just purchased a Bombardier VW Iltis, still enroute to me. Right now, it is set up as a standard softtop.

As appreciation for my Northern Brothers fighting in the GWOT, I would like to kit it out as an early ISAF rig.
I've been researching C6 and M2 .50BMG Mounts for the Iltis, found designation for the 1/4ton Truck, Command and Recon with GPMG Mounting Kit. I can only find an online copy of the standard truck operators and maintenance manuals.
Searching Google Images, I found a few photos of the TOW variant, with the C6 somehow mounted on a post by the co driver:



I have a lead on a C6 mount that traverses 360 deg, elevates 60 deg, mounts on 1" OD seamless tubing. I won't have a photo available until sometime next month, the seller is in the Great White North without access to a computer.

Here's a photo of Belgian Paras with a Ma Deuce Mounted Iltis:


This looks like a standard M2 Pintle mounted on some kind of socket on the rollbar.
And this original German Iltis with an M2 .50 BMG Mounted:


This one appears to be the same socket as on the Belgian Iltis but with an M23 Equibrilator for the M2.

I also found this mystery German mount:

This is very complex, typical German over-engineering. Probably a mount for a Milan AT Missle.

Anyhow, I was hoping some of the members here might have some more info or possible source for either the TOW C6 Mount or the C&R C6 Mount.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Jeez, you'd think the .50 would shake that little truck to bits in short order...

[T. Alcorn]

Originally Posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball

Jeez, you'd think the .50 would shake that little truck to bits in short order...

Yeah, like the rollbar is only thinwall aluminium.

[maple_leaf_eh]

I don't recognize the machine gun mount as something routinely available. I suggest you are going to have trouble finding one. The infantry did a number of modifications to turn patrol vehicles into fighting vehicles. When a couple of suicide bombers threw themselves into open vehicles, the press made a lot of noise about inadequate equipment. Then the Iltis fleet was abandoned/left behind/given to the Afghan Army when Canada left Kabul for Kandahar in summer '06. The guys transitioned to Mercedes G Wagons at the time.

Try to troll through the DND combatcamera website for more or better pictures. It is a longshot, but try asking 3 RCR directly if they have any pictures. The battalion will have replaced or rotated almost every single soldier who was in Kabul in the early years, but asking may lead to advertising for pictures or stories through their regimental association.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

It is a longshot, but try asking 3 RCR directly if they have any pictures. The battalion will have replaced or rotated almost every single soldier who was in Kabul in the early years, but asking may lead to advertising for pictures or stories through their regimental association.

T. Alcorn;

Terry mentioned contacting 3 RCR or the regimental association -

The Regimental Website of The Royal Canadian Regiment is located here: http://www.theroyalcanadianregiment.ca/

click on the link "The Regimental Discussion Board", this will open The Royal Canadian Regiment Forum, post your questions in the Help category.

Cheers

[maple_leaf_eh]

I just remembered something. There was a huge investigation* after an Iltis patrol had a minestrike on a route that was arguably cleared and not cleared. That would be in the Jowz (sp?) Valley, near Kabul on Oct. 2, 2003. The section commander, Sgt. Robert Short, and another colleague, Cpl. Robbie Beerenfenger, were killed. The paperwork for the report will have photos! If you can figure out the name and contents of the report, then do an Access to Information request, off you go.

The Canadian legal requirement is to investigate all casualties and issue a report. In the beginning it was a big deal "to get to the bottom of this". Nowadays, I suspect the report is much less staff work. This brevity can be a problem if the death has unclear circumstances, like cowboy contractors also engaging the enemy in the area. But that is another story.

[T. Alcorn]

Re: GPMG Soft Mount

I have seen a few Israeli FN MAG 58 Titanium Tripods on the market, around $600-750. It has the same soft mount cradle as seen on the Belgian GPMG Mount.

Anyhooo, I saw one for $600 on Gunbroker, decided to do a Google Search, found Israeli MAG58 Tripods, complete with the AA extension, for $400!
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd....CatID=&mySort=


I figure I can fab a Browning M1919 mount on my mill, and resell the tripod for $300 or so. Beats paying $1500 for just the buffered cradle from Sage.

[T. Alcorn]

Well, I decided to build my own GPMG Mounting kit based on the Belgian version. I guestimated the size tubing needed to be 1.75" OD, 0.125" wall. Here's my mount, lightly Mig welded to get me thru the parade, intend to go over it with Tig, make it look nice, and finish the locking mechanisms:




Here's my friend with his son. I bought a RCA Cadet Beret Crest for him kitted him out as a C9 Gunner. He had fun sawing the crowd the airsoft C9A1 I built from an M249 Para.


This one was taken the week before. Notice the crappy tan overspray around the stencil, just like in 2002, eh? This was supposed to be an A Coy 3PPCLI display for the 101st Airborne Division (my old outfit) Band up in Denver, but she jumped timing on the interstate, got towed home.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Only one problem I see with your display - wrong cap badge! It should be an RCR star not PPCLI. (Yeah, 3rd Bn of each regiment is Light Infantry and each one has a jump company, but don't confuse the two units.) Other than that, you've nailed it. As Dan told me, their Materials Techs made the mounts for them locally. As the photo evidence shows, the mounts could look like almost anything. And as the tour close-out pictures show, those vehicles were left behind for the Afghans.

[T. Alcorn]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Only one problem I see with your display - wrong cap badge! It should be an RCR star not PPCLI. (Yeah, 3rd Bn of each regiment is Light Infantry and each one has a jump company, but don't confuse the two units.) Other than that, you've nailed it. As Dan told me, their Materials Techs made the mounts for them locally. As the photo evidence shows, the mounts could look like almost anything. And as the tour close-out pictures show, those vehicles were left behind for the Afghans.

Terry,
That gig as C 3PPCLI was because they were attached to the 187th Brigade Combat Team (101st AB Div) in 2002. That was my tie-in, for a non-US vehicle at the band gig.
Udderwise, I like the 3RCR because The Skunque came out of Petawawa. I had some original, worn in-theatre ISAF patches and IR Cdn Flags, etc coming to me, but they disappeared in the mail. Box arrived totally empty. What a freakin' let down. There are fake ISAF patches on eBay, these were actually worn over there and were being donated to my little "rolling museum"

I have yet to post over on the RCR Forum or the Army.ca forum.. so far all I've got are positive remarks. They may be a bit more critical over there.

[strat1]

Tom

The mount for the TOW Iltis came from the Lav-25 Coyotes that were there as part of the Op Apollo mission. The order came down to strip them off and send them to the Iltis crews.I was a Coyote crew commander during that tour back in 2002.

Anthony

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by T. Alcorn

... I bought a RCA Cadet Beret Crest for him kitted him out as a C9 Gunner.

I think your vehicle restoration is quite well done. I won't get into the "wearing of in-service dress by re-enactors" issue, but will comment on the "cadet" dress. I think I know what you are getting when you mention "RCA". For accuracy's sake, the proper name/abbreviation for the army cadets are Royal Canadian Army Cadets/RCAC. In the Canadian Forces, RCA is the abbreviation for Royal Canadian Artillery. These are two very different organizations. The cadets are a youth group, while the RCA are dealers of death by long distance.

Keep up the great vehicle work!

[Ed Storey]

Thanks Tom for your well articulated response to my comments. As a current serving member of the Canadian Forces, your ability to formulate a proper reply to my comments without resorting to 'mud slinging' just reinforces my feelings about your total unsuitability to correctly and respectfully represent my military at public events.

[Scott Bentley]

Wow... This really went down hill.

I've never been a fan of people dressing up regardless... But i'm normally a live and let live kind of guy. From what i've seen in the US, this is a very normal past time.

Having said that, I feel Tom is getting an unfair shake here. The vehicle he chose to restore just so happens to be from a period that wore the current CF uniform. At the rate we update our uniforms, it will be many years before CADPAT is no longer current, so this really opens a big can of worms for many years down the road. People were wearing OG107 Combats at shows long before those went out of the system.... I've seen it with my own eyes, so this isn't a new thing wearing "current" issue uniforms.

I think the reason he is getting the unfair shake is over the nit-picking of the details of his dress, and wether he should be allowed to wear it at all. All I can say here is that i've seen many many Canadians at shows depicting the CF, and doing a FAR worse job than Tom, and I never saw anyone attacking them over it. Thats where this issue bothers me. People should be eating some Crow here.

The last show I attended in Oshawa, I watched people walking around in Nazi uniforms... How people can attack someone for wearing a current uniform, yet allow that at a show is beyond my level comprehension. Thankfully, there were no former/serving Nazi's around to criticize them about wether their Jackboots and Schmissers were correct.

Tom, I am proud to see a US Citizen taking the time to restore a Canadian Vehicle, and going to the lengths you have gone to in order to get the most correct equipment you can find. The Uniform bit is your choice, and I will not comment about its correctness, as that will require me have to correct anyone else I see at a show who has some mistakes. Besides, I am no longer a Warrant Officer and have better things to do now (OPMEs ) than look at boots and haircuts

Ed, i've got alot of respect for you and the work that you have done, but the CF is "our" (Canada's) military and not yours, and your opinion doesn't speak for me or any other serving member of the CF. Just want to make sure the Arcs of Fire are clear here, none of us a PAFFOs.

Lastly, I promise never to engage in these posts, but in this case I couldn't stop myself.

[T. Alcorn]

Got my replica of the Belgian-style GPMG Mounting Kit almost done:




The main pedestal attaches to two 3/16" thick 5x8in plates bolted thru the floor and under the body, via a piece of 1.5" OD 0.25" wall tube welded to the plate, and a 0.25" dia clevis pin.

It still needs a secondary attachment under the glovebox for stability, elevation wing nut lock assy and the pintle lock assy installed.

[Ed Storey]

Nice work on restoring the Iltis, the US style bridge classification sign you have mounted on the front of yours is something I have never seen mounted on a Canadian Iltis and for sure if I had, I would have taken a photograph of it.

As noble as your intentions are, I do find it more than a bit disturbing to see an American dressing up as a Canadian for your parades and such. To see comments that you post, "Here's my friend with his son. I bought a RCA Cadet Beret Crest for him kitted him out as a C9 Gunner. He had fun sawing the crowd the airsoft C9A1 I built from an M249 Para" disturbs me even more so. In your original post you stated that your intent was " As appreciation for my Northern Brothers fighting in the GWOT" and now you are kitting out your friends kids as quasi-Canadian Army Cadets (who do not deploy overseas and are are not even issued with C9s even in Canada) and going the route of 'circus atmosphere' that seems to quickly consume these re-enactor style events and parades.

I have no control with what you do with the things you purchase on eBay or are sent by friends; but I feel that it may be a much more appropriate 'tribute' to ditch the dress-up and display your vehicle for what it is, a restored Iltis. If you wish to show some appropriate South-west Asia items in a static display beside you vehicle then fine, but at least take the time to learn what the material is. For instance, in Canada, the insignia worn on berets are called Cap Badges, not crests...

[T. Alcorn]

You know, Ed, of the many past and present Canadian Forces Members I've communicated with over the last 9 months, yours is the only negative comment I've received.

How many years have you been dressing up as a Para without actually jumping?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Tom;

There is no need for mud slinging, although to the point, Ed’s comments were constructive criticism. I myself do not think it is appropriate for someone who is not a serving soldier of any nation to wear current issued uniforms of that nation, regardless of their intentions. A mannequin (or two) correctly kitted out and with the proper accoutrements would be more appropriate in an accompanying static display to your Iltis.

Cheers