Argyll Roger - a true enigma?

Hanno Spoelstra · #1 02-05-11, 19:00

This subject has been discussed before, but I am bringing it up again, hoping to clear up this enigma one day.

Argyll Roger is the name of the Sherman V (M4A4) which is on display at the Hartenstein Airborne Museum in Oosterbeek, the Netherlands.

Here is what we know about this Sherman: shortly after the liberation in 1945, a Sherman V (M4A4) was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein. A period picture shows the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger" painted on the hull side (see below, thanks to Maurice). Some years later, "Argyll Roger" was then moved to Doorwerth Castle where the museum was housed. The Sherman was moved back to Hotel Hartenstein when the Airborne museum moved there.

argyll roger.jpg

In the mid-1980s we researched the question: where did "Argyll Roger" come from? Options were:

It was captured by the German Army in September 1944 and left behind in April 1945.
It was left there by an Allied unit which liberated Oosterbeek in April 1945.
It was brought there for the making of a movie on Market Garden shortly after WW2. We know a number of tanks and vehicles were brought to Oosterbeek, but we are not sure the movie props included a Sherman tank.
For some reason (joyriding?) it was brought to Oosterbeek from the Deelen dump, a huge nearby storage area for Commonwealth vehicles.

Option 2) was the most obvious, but we could not find any units which reported a loss of a Sherman V and leaving it there. However, the Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) were among the units which liberated Oosterbeek, and they did have a Sherman named “Argyle”. Sounds like it, doesn’t it?!? But this tank was not reported lost, plus it was a Sherman VC Firefly. It was very tempting to stick this identity to "Argyll Roger", and this is what the museum did. They explained the fact that their tank is a regular 75-mm Sherman and not a 17-pdr Firefly by the given that “guns can be easily swapped on Shermans”. However, there is no operational explanation to do so, and if a Firefly was converted back into a 75-mm gun tank, there would be clear indications this happened. "Argyll Roger" has no signs of having ever been converted into a Firefly and/or back.
So, although this was a tempting solution to fill the gap of a missing history and have he benefit of a Regiment adopting it for restauration, repainting etc. (just like the Grizzly at Groesbeek!), the only right conclusion is that these two tanks are not the same.

Frustrating fact is the provenance of "Argyll Roger" remains an enigma to this day.

Is there anyone who could tell me who, what or where "Argyll Roger" is or was? That might prove to be a new clue to its identity.

Thanks in advance!

Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra · #2 09-09-11, 11:23

Attached is a picture postcard dated ca. 1962 (scan provided by a Marco Hogenkamp) showing Argyll Roger on display at Doorwerth Castle.

Sherman-Oosterbeek_resized.jpg

kevinT · #3 09-09-11, 20:29

Although I cannot add anymore to these post one thing that does strike me as odd is the placement of the name itself.

Names are generally on the transmission, turret, front of driver gunner / driver housing or on or above the forward applique armour patch. It seems very far back to me.
Just an observation.

Cheers
Kevin

Alex van de Wetering · #4 20-09-11, 13:48

The Airborne museum recently published an old picture of the Sherman in their news section, which shows the tank on display at the Doorwerth castle.

source: www.airbornemuseum.nl

Sadly the picture is slightly damaged on top of the Tank's name..... "ARG...GER". It does look like the tank hasn't been repainted in the picture yet....you still see remains of the US stencil "ANTI FREEZE....) close to the Census number.

I agree that it is not very likely that it was a Vc converted back to a V....Yes, you could replace the gun with a 75mm (one of us has even done this recently

), but what about the radio box at the rear of the turret and the square hatch? Fit a different turret would solve this, but than you still have the extra armor in front of the bow .30 position and the travel support for the gun.....and different hull interior layout. A number of Shermans on display in Belgium are actuallu Vc's made to look like American M4A4's, but in all cases evidence remains of their true identity....

Alex

hans_mulder_sherman.jpg

tankbarrell · #5 20-09-11, 15:53

Nice picture. I agree, that tank has never been a VC. BTW the anti-freeze stencil is a British add on.

Hanno Spoelstra · #6 21-09-11, 14:51

All,

Thanks for your input. There is no doubt this Sherman V was never converted into a Firefly, and therefore could not have been "Argyle", which was a Sherman VC Firefly of the Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) it currently depicts.

I am hoping one day someone will recognise the meaning of "Argyll Roger" so we can trace it back to a unit which used this Sherman. Kevin's remark about the placement of the name may help in identifying certain regiments which adopted this practice?

Thanks,
Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra · #7 05-02-18, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

In 1949, when the Airborne Museum was established in Kasteel Doorwerth, the Sherman was moved there. But in 1978, when the Airborne Museum moved to Hotel Hartenstein, the Sherman was moved back to where it was found in 1945.

Here is another picture of Argyll Roger at Doorwerth Castle. This is where the first airborne museum was housed. Date: 26-03-1977

477-0014.jpg
Source: Gelders archief

And here is being transported to back to Hartenstein hotel at Utrechtseweg, Oosterbeek, after the Airborne Museum moved there. Date: 26-03-1977

477-0015.jpg
Source: Gelders archief

Hanno Spoelstra · #8 22-12-18, 21:36

Another set of pictures of Argyll Roger. Note the two battle damaged 17-pdr guns. These picture were taken at Doorwerth Castle.

Both the Sherman V and the guns can now be seen at the Airborne Museum in Oosterbeek, The Netherlands.

beeldbankWO2_141241.jpg

Source: https://beeldbankwo2.nl/nl/beelden/d...7-d3afff38e8b5

beeldbankWO2_141255.jpg

Source: https://beeldbankwo2.nl/nl/beelden/d...8-2a3b46bae836

Jordan Baker · #9 23-12-18, 00:10

The marks all along the side of the hull and turret appear to be remains of welding spare track links to the hull. It could be why its difficult to find a wartime picture of the tank

Hanno Spoelstra · #10 23-12-18, 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

The marks all along the side of the hull and turret appear to be remains of welding spare track links to the hull. It could be why its difficult to find a wartime picture of the tank

Indeed, it must have been fitted with spare track welded to the sides. A good example of the extensive use of spare tracks as extra/ stand-off armour is shown in the left hand picture. It shows Sherman tanks of the Governor Generals Horse Guards Regiment while advancing over the Hommelseweg, Arnhem on 15 April 1945 (note: the second tank is commanded by Capt. Robert Murray - source). This picture was taken about 7 km. from where Argyll Roger stands today, but it is not the same Sherman. After WW2 ended, most tanks were stripped from any additions, repainted and serviced to be paraded and then handed in.

On the right: a picture of Argyll Roger's two distinctive spare track links welded to the RH final drive housing. Here's hoping one day someone comes across a picture with showing this distinctive feature!

2608.jpg beeldbankWO2_141255-2-redlined.jpg

Hanno Spoelstra · #11 30-10-11, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here is what we know about this Sherman: shortly after the liberation in 1945, a Sherman V (M4A4) was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein. A period picture shows the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger" painted on the hull side (see below, thanks to Maurice).

Here's another picture of Argyll Roger in the same location. Source: www.geldersarchief.nl, courtesy of Marco H.

Edited to add: this picture was taken at the Utrechtseweg 232, Oosterbeek, in September 1946. The Airborne Monument is shown in the background at the other side of the road (Utrechtseweg).

Argyll-Roger_resized.jpg 326.jpg

Hanno Spoelstra · #12 02-05-16, 14:35

Also from www.geldersarchief.nl, another picture of the same Sherman at the same location and date, September 1946.

This picture was made by L.P.J. Vroemen.

Census number T-288627 and name "ARGYLL ROGER" are clearly readable.

251.jpg 251 (2).jpg

Hanno Spoelstra · #13 02-05-16, 14:59

As can be seen by comparing pictures in this thread, there was a time this Sherman was "fenced in" and a a time when it was more freely accessible. It had its turret traversed to the rear and it while it was located close to Hotel Hartenstein, in a different location as can be seen in this picture postcard (also from http://www.geldersarchief.nl/) - if you look closely.

I would guess it was first left where it stood when found around the time the civilians came back to Oosterbeek after the liberation in 1945 - note that after Market-Garden Oosterbeek was evacuated by the German Army.

Then when the surroundings were cleared up a little by little from 1945 onwards, the Sherman apparently was moved, it's turret traversed to the front and a small fence added.

In 1949, when the Airborne Museum was established in Kasteel Doorwerth, the Sherman was moved there. But in 1978, when the Airborne Museum moved to Hotel Hartenstein, the Sherman was moved back to where it was found in 1945.

1765.jpg 1765_cropped.jpg