RCDs & M3 75mm GMC?

Dave Block · #1 22-07-12, 21:04

Hi all. There's a photo on Library and Archives Canada (PA201371) showing an M3 75mm GMC with the RCD in Italy, May 1944. Does anyone have any details of their service, i.e. how many, time frame, etc.? I found a thread on one site that suggested the GMCs were used until Dec. '44 when they "wore out".
Is it possible that they would just remove the 75mm & continue to use the halftrack as a GS vehicle? Spares shouldn't have been too much of a problem as the US was using the same basic halftrack as well.
As well as the name "FOX" on the vehicle, there is an 'A' squadron triangle on the side. Any idea as to what it's colour might be?

Many thanks, Dave

wim sikkelbein · #2 22-07-12, 21:24

Hi Dave,

Attached is a picture of your halftrack still in use in the netherlands by the RCD.

photo courtesy of nederlandsfotomuseum

picture was taken in the amsterdam area

Dave Block · #3 23-07-12, 17:08

That photo is absolutely amazing! Very much appreciated.

Cheers, Dave

Roger Lucy · #4 25-07-12, 18:40

They were used by the RCDs in Italy in lieu of the CS support version of the Stag, for details see Service Publication's The Staghound in Canadian service.

Darrell Zinck · #5 26-07-12, 03:29

Hi Dave

From the RCD Centennial History book 1983 by Brereton Greenhous, they are mentioned as arriving on 2 Jan 1944 while the Regt was at Altamura Italy, gearing up to go into the theatre of ops for the first time. 8 in total.

However they are described as a White Autocar product "cobbled together" by the US as a Tank Destroyer "version of the M3" in 1941. Basically armoured White trucks with a half-track arrangement and were in fact former US Army property in Tunisia. Said to be armed with French 75mm guns.

According to the History, they were given to the Regt by the British who got them from the Amercicans when their full-tracked TDs appeared. The RCD had no doctrine for them so organized them as Heavy Troops (2 cars per Troop and one Troop to each Sqn). They would do pinpoint shoots in Italy at night and were somewhat renowned for what they could achieve as Black Hats. Mind you their Officer was former Artillery too, Lt LM Sebert
There are photos in the book of A Sqn in Italy Spring 44 and in Holland May 45. I haven't seen the one you reference in your first post yet. Is there a link to see it? I have a disc around here somewhere with a good part of the RCD photo Archive on it. I should look for that too!!

Hope that helps.

And please, stop saying RCDs, it hurts my ears!! RCD is infinately preferable.

regards
Darrell

45jim · #6 27-07-12, 15:52

Darrell,

A second rate Regiment deserves second rate grammar...

Perseverance!

Edwin Wand · #7 27-07-12, 17:02

45Jim's anonomous comment is uncalled for, untrue and not worthy of being posted on this website.

Darrell Zinck · #8 28-07-12, 05:08

Hi Ed

It's OK. What may seem a rude and obnoxious comment is not that rude at all.

45jim, based on his Percy Verance sign-off shows himself likely to be a Strathcona..............and when it comes to second, they know all about that spot.

How's that go again? LdSH; Little dumb..........Heads!! Probably just that Jim R. fellow anyway ...............

regards
Darrell

Dave Block · #9 12-11-12, 00:27

First up, thanks again to all who replied so far! Attached is the RCD photo from LAC that I alluded to in my previous post. The second is the one kindly provided by Wim Sikkelbein showing a vehicle in Holland. Something kept bothering me about the latter photo and I realized the fenders are very odd. The M3 75mm GMC was built by AutoCar and should have 'standard' M3-style rounded fenders. This one has the flat-profile M5/M9-style fenders! Could the base workshop lift the whole 75mm assembly out of an otherwise clapped-out M3 and plunk it into an IHC M5/M9? The firepower of the GMC seemed to be greatly appreciated and this is the only explanation I can think of for the obvious fender difference. The orginal M3s had two previous owners before we got them so I can see the vehicle needing replacement before its 'gun'. Any thoughts & insights would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers, Dave

Mrs Vampire · #10 12-11-12, 03:04

As you can see in the second photograph the set up was highly inaccurate. Though fall of shot pattern was highly regular they, none the less, fell either side of the target bicycle using both the 75mm and the .5

This despite an arrow target indicator and extremely close range.

Dave Block · #11 12-11-12, 03:41

What 'set up was highly inaccurate' and how does it apply to my post? Thanks for taking the time to respond but I have no idea what you are referring to. I managed to borrow a copy of Greenhous's history from the local UoT library and he indicated that the RCD appreciated the extra firepower that the the GMC's could provide. 'Accuracy' didn't seem to be the issue at hand. BTW, I'd love to add a copy of the Greenhous book to my library if there's one going cheap, (i.e. $30.00 + shipping). Just throwing it out there.
Cheers, Dave

Mrs Vampire · #12 12-11-12, 05:12

My apologies Dave...just an attempt at some amusement. If you noticed in the second photo there is a bicycle leaning against the wall with what appear to be bullet holes either side of it .
I thought it would be amusing to suppose that the half track had been practice shooting at it .

Hanno Spoelstra · #13 12-11-12, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Block

First up, thanks again to all who replied so far! Attached is the RCD photo from LAC that I alluded to in my previous post.

Dave,

I merged your new thread with your old one to keep this subject together.

Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra · #14 12-11-12, 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Block

This one has the flat-profile M5/M9-style fenders! Could the base workshop lift the whole 75mm assembly out of an otherwise clapped-out M3 and plunk it into an IHC M5/M9? The firepower of the GMC seemed to be greatly appreciated and this is the only explanation I can think of for the obvious fender difference. The orginal M3s had two previous owners before we got them so I can see the vehicle needing replacement before its 'gun'. Any thoughts & insights would be greatly appreciated.

Dave,

Well spotted! Although not a modular design, as far as I can see the gun mount could be taken out and fitted to another half track.
See this cached page of the now defunct AFV Interiors website for some detail information on the M3 75-mm Gun Motor Carriage.

Hanno

Dave Block · #15 18-11-12, 00:45

Thank you so much. I was trying to figure out how to merge the two threads but realized I'd have to take 'moderator lessons' to get results so I left it to the professionals. I can't afford to join the 1:1 scale crowd so I stick to 1:35 plastic where I can 'fudge' some details. After viewing your 'inside the armour' link I can see that it wouldn't have been an insurmountable difficulty for the RCEME to switch mounts (did I mention my dad was in the RCOC/RCEME so I might be biased?). Now, whose going to produce a decent IHC M5 or M9 lend-lease half track?
Cheers, Dave

paul visser · #16 18-11-12, 20:29

Dave,
I have a original photo of the liberation parade in June 1945 in Amsterdam. It is taken on the "van baerlestraat" at the museum plein (concert hall). i think you like this one.

Regards,
Paul

Dave Block · #17 22-11-12, 00:23

I do like this! The first and third vehicles appear to be M5/M9 half-tracks (which officially never had the 75mm GMC mounted) and the centre one is a proper M3 GMC. All sorts of little details set them apart, the lead vehicle has later headlights and side racks while the centre one has the earlier style lights, no racks and both are fitted with front rollers. The third is almost the same as the first but has a winch fitted instead of the roller, a real 'mix n match'. Obviously the placement for the RCA battery wasn't carved in stone either, 'somewhere along the side will do'.
Speaking of the battery markings, can anyone hazard a guess/definitively say what the RCD one would be in this case? I'm looking at Barry Beldam's 'RCA Tac Signs' Vol. Ed.1, 1995 and equating the 'Fox' name to Battery 'F' giving a basic blue square with the smaller red designator square in the lower left quadrant, white 'F1', 'F2', 'F3' or 'F4' depending. (Sigh, a picture really is worth a thousand words!).

Thanks again, Dave

Graham Hunter · #18 18-03-13, 19:18

This is a photo from RCD's Pictoral History. It is a training exercise in the Volturno area.

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/a...Grouping-1.jpg

I posted a link as photo is too big for attachment.

I plan on building the Dragon kit as one of the RCD Heavy Troop Halftracks.

RCDGrouping-1.jpg

maple_leaf_eh · #19 18-03-13, 22:46

I've often wondered what the Commonwealth units did for 75mm ammunition for these tank annoyers. I know the gun was an old design that the Americans adopted, like so many other French implements of war. Is this the same round as the 75mm Sherman tank's?

John McGillivray · #20 19-03-13, 01:37

The 75mm gun in the Sherman was based on the 75mm field gun and used the exact same ammunition. The 75 mm HE shell could be fitted with either the M48 impact fuse or the M54 Time Fuse. It came with three different charge levels, (reduce charge, normal charge and super charge). There was also Smoke WP and AP rounds. This is why the allies were able to use the Sherman as SP Artillery and engage targets with indirect fire.

Graham Hunter · #21 26-03-13, 02:51

This is a photo from RCD Pictoral History of the Heavy Troops in Netherlands one hour after cease fire was called.

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/a...eavies-NTL.jpg

Sorry as a link as photo is too big for attachment.

RCDHeavies-NTL.jpg

marco · #22 26-03-13, 19:53

Photo from a RCD halftrack made during the liberation of Groningen, Netherlands.
This is an International build halftrack.

Marco