Selling Personal Collections

[Ed Storey]

I missed the key post in yesterday's thread on the selling of collections and since I am willing to 'stir the pot' and continue what seems to be a contentious topic let me weigh in and state that the owner of a collection, large or small can do whatever with it; and they have no obligation to donate or sell the collection to a museum.

Did I miss anything?

[rob love]

No Ed, I don't believe you have missed anything. And as far as I am concerned, the cultural properties act is just a way to save the government money. If it is privately owned, and the government of Canada believes it is culturally important, then they have to pay the market price to acquire it.

Don't get me wrong, I love museums. Heck, I spend 8 hours a day at one.

[maple_leaf_eh]

So let me ask Ed and Rob, what is your opinion on Governments seizing a serving or retired members' awards?

Every so often an Order of Canada is yanked back, and recently two disgraced CF members were stripped of their orders and awards. So when does a medal no longer belong to the individual or family? What is to stop that precedent from being applied contingent on the recipients' 'lifetime or good behaviour'?

[Dean (Ajax)]

I just want to state that the collection that is up for sale was bought over the past 30 years by Phil who lives in Normandy, he was going to set up a Private Museum with a couple of other collectors, but as I said, due to some problems with local officials and permits, it did not happen.

So the chance of a Canadian Museum in Normandy, is now gone.

When that juno centre opened, he had some of it on display..however he and the Woman that runs the centre never really got along.

Phil stayed at my place the 2 times he came over to collect, and he was with me at one of the Acton shows 3 years ago.

Dean O

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents, Ed and Rob,

I was kind of wondering if my posts were ever read. I know now that they are.

Upon further tought and after reading your posts , my opinion is that disposing of one's collection of Canadian war artefacts is a personal and individual matter.

Medals and awards are privileges awarded by and for Her Majesty.

In the strict and legal sense, they belong to Her Majesty , as any title , rank or appointment.

I have donated 12 fully dressed and equiped and armed mannequins representing 20th century canadian soldiers of different periods to the local Legion Museum. One of my friends ( André ) hase donated up to 12 fully operational CMP trucks and armored vehicules to the Canadian War Museum and another ( Renald ) his whole Ross rifle collection. It was the most complete collection in Canada. My ongoing project is to donate a working MK 2 Carrier to the same Museum as a center showpiece . The only thing i ask in return is that my name and rank be handpainted on the driver's side armour in 1/2 inch letters. That would be more than M. André Gibeau had from the War Museum. When he asked that his donations be named they refused because it was not initially in the donation conditions. A shame.

Without such donations our Museums would be without important artefacts for future generations.

Then there is the matter of pay scale. I am a specialist officer and the above mentioned friends are in the same pay scale category in the civilian world , so it is more easy for us to donate . But still , i am of the opinion that it should be encouraged.

As far as stripping a member of his awards and medals goes , well , it is up to Her Majesty to decide and yank back what she has given. A dishonorable discharge is what it is : Dishonorable. If you commit murder ( Ex Col Russel Williams ) Her Majesty can yank back without a second tought what she as awarded you but only if you commited the offense while you were still serving. It is my opinion that if the offense was comitted later in your life , say after retirement then you should be left alone and most are .

As for the Order of Canada Terry, it is a civilian award and other rules and traditions apply. Lord of the Rings Black got his Order of Canada yanked and that was a political decision. Same when Chrétien refused his Lordship and he pursued and renounced his canadian citizenship.He then wanted it back to serve his sentence for fraud in a more comfortable and cozy canadian prison and a more leniant , better balanced Canadian criminal justice system.

One can't have it all. Have your cake and eat it. We must serve Her Majesty for Canada with honour and dignity for all of our lives or else relinguish our privileges.

These are opinions and please if we are to debate please be considerate and polite fellows. I am not looking for controversy.

Thanks.

Robert

[Ed Storey]

I must confess that my knowledge of honours and awards is very limited. I would be curious to know how many awards were seized in the time period from the 1960s through to the 1980s. Is the government more likely to seize these awards now, then in the past?

Also, what about disgraced politicians and senators; especially those convicted of a crime? Many of them were given awards simply because they held an elected or appointed position, upon conviction of a crime, are their awards seized?

[Robert Bergeron]

Ed,

You have a good point.

I am far less knowledgeable about awards and medals awarded to civilians but if the Order of Canada is an example than i must say that they do .

Disgraced politicians and private citizens are stripped of the Order of Canada regularly.

I do not know about the commemorative Jubilee and Confederation medals . They are awarded in quite large numbers and i do not think the awards comittee in the Governor General's office keep track on the behavior of the receipients of those '' medals '' or commemorative coins.

I have received a few of those commemorative ''medals '' and wear them proudly on my uniform but i do not make much of them ,they are so common and not strickly military.

There is one Veteran Affairs minister ( Fantino ) that flaunted them and the Veterans that dealt with him were not impressed at all.

That opens up the whole debate about medals and who should be allowed to wear them. Left-right of breast. Descendant of receipient or family member.

Ther debate is in full swing at my local Branch of the Legion. Civilian members of the Branch want to show '' their '' family member's medals and wear them .It is beginning to look like a pissing contest . There is always a civilian who can show a larger set than our retired military members of the Cold War if he wears his uncle's WW2 rack.

That is another can of worms.. and i do not seek controversy just remebrance for those who served and sacrificed everything .

Robert

[Ed Storey]

As I stated earlier, if a person wants to donate to a museum, then that is their prerogative. Although I have to ask, why?

Is a person really helping a museum by donated material to the institution? A museum should, in my opinion, have a collection policy that not only takes into consideration current historical events, but looks towards the future. If a museum is deficient in a piece of historical equipment then that item should be identified as being key to the collection and an effort made to obtain it by the museum. Having collectors donate items to a museum that they think the museum needs not only influences the collection process; but also reinforces to the museum that a realistic collection policy is not required as there are a group of well meaning individuals willing to donate material to build the collection.

As well, a museum is suppose to be a centre of historical excellence, emphasis on suppose to. If you have collectors donating items that are to be centre showpieces, then how do you control the quality of restoration and markings? As you stated, for the Mk II Carrier, you are requesting that your name and rank be hand-painted on the side armour; markings that are not correct for the vehicle.

Okay, so you donate your fully functioning, suitably marked centre showpiece; what happens if in ten, twenty or fifty years from now the museum decides (because they own it) that the carrier would make a great permanent outdoor display. So much for the donation and your restoration work.

My point is, let the museum staff do the work that they were hired to do, which is to effectively manage a collection in a manner in which they do not have to rely on collectors to do that work for them.