Two new pages of Western Desert images

[Keith Webb]

A delightful shot which along with the F15 on a boat form part of an album loaned to me by Peter Cradddock whose father served in the Western Desert during WW2.

Have a look

There are a couple of shots I'd like help with ID on...



This 1940 Ford is left hand drive. What might have been it's origins?



Could this be a Fordson WOT6?

And a recovery trailer

[Keith Webb]

This is the famous Black 6, the Me109 captured by 3 Squadron RAAF, and flown by S/L Bobby Gibbes. This is the same aircraft which was restored and flown in the UK until it was overturned in a landing accident.

Here's the page

[Jon Skagfeld]

Keith: were you aware that a book has been publlished about subject a/c?

Black 6, author Russ Snadden,publisher: Patrick Stephens Ltd(Haynes Publishing Group Somerset), ISBN 1-85260-425-5.

[Richard Farrant]

Keith,
The top pic in the first message shows a Ford WOA2 Heavy Utility, a British Ford, built at Dagenham. The 6 wheeler is more likely a Model 79 Fordson Sussex, cab is not a WOT type.

Richard

[Keith Webb]

Jon and Richard. I thought I'd come across the book somewhere. Imagine being lucky enough to actually meet the man who flew it jist after capture...
Richard, I've updated the page to reflect your information.

Any ideas about this rather gruesome pic?



I assume the body is that of a German, but what's the hardware?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The '40 Ford could have been purchased through the Ford subsidiary in Alexandria just as GM Near East in Alexandria supplied civilian and military trucks to the War Office, Egyptian Government, and Trans-Jordan Frontier Force from 1937-40. Ford in Egypt sold Dagenham as well as subsidised Cologne products, much to the annoyance of British vehicle importers such as the local Austin people.

[Rod Diery]

Originally posted by Keith Webb
I assume the body is that of a German, but what's the hardware?

From the shape of the wheel in the background, I would hazard a guess that this is a German 15cm howitzer, Model sFH 18 built by Rheinmetal from 1934.

My source is a soft cover book called The Guns 1939 - 45 by Ian V Hogg published 1969

Cheers
Rod

[Dave Page]

Hi,
in the second image, judjing by the shape of the wings the rh vehicle appears to be a Guy FBAX; a mobile workshop perhaps?
Dave

[Bill Murray]

David, a question if I may.

In all of the Ford Germany literature I have and it is certainly not complete by a long shot, I have no indication that they did a pickup. Station Wagons (Estate Cars) yes but no pickups.
The pic in this thread is a dead ringer for a US version of that type and the question I pose is was it not imported from the US and not Germany? It certainly does not appear to be re-bodied, the lines are pure US, and it is LHD.
Not disagreeing with you, just curious.
As a BTW, does anyone have any more information on the Ford and GM agents in Egypt, particularly on the ranges of vehicles imported and sold and most importantly photos of examples whether military or civilian?

Years ago I contacted the "history" blokes at Ford, GM and Chrysler to try to get such info regarding a whole range of countries and basically drew a blank. Hopefully, there is someone out there who has the gen on this type of stuff.
Cheers
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Bill, the Alexandria-based Ford company imported British, German and I believe Canadian vehicles. However they would only have imported the smaller British models. That means that they would have imported a range of Canadian and Fordson trucks.

As regards GM Near East, we know they imported from Bloomfield, New Jersey Boxing Plant and these were CKD chassis/cab or chassis-only. The works then produced whetever was required, namely heavy-duty trucks, buses, station wagons, cars...General Motors World February 1940 had a small item on a large order for the Egyptian Government of Chevrolets custom-built in Alexandria. This was below a piece on GM Suisse-built Chevrolet four-door sedans that had been converted, 1938-40 as artillery tractors. At least one survives!

Originally posted by Rod Diery
From the shape of the wheel in the background, I would hazard a guess that this is a German 15cm howitzer, Model sFH 18 built by Rheinmetal from 1934.

Yup, taking advice my expert says:
"Could be the 15cm sFH 18 as mentioned or the sFH 36, which for what little you can actually see of it, is identical. Note; Rubber tyred rims show it to be motor towed as opposed to horse drawn, which would then have steel only rims. Of course no known horse drawn vehicles in the desert!!!!
Rheinmetall-Borsig AG were the prime comtractor, but only one of several manufacturers, many other companies also made these guns during WWII and SKODA also made the sFH 18 post-war."

R.

[Gunner]

Not to challenge your expert, but all the books I have on the subject indicate that most big German guns of the period were shod with hard rubber on steel or aluminium rims. A rare few had pneumatic tyres and some WW I retreads still had wooden spoked, steel shod wheels.

I would be very interested in learning more about the subject as it is a huge gap in my knowledge of artillery technology.

Cheers, Mike

Originally posted by Gunner
Not to challenge your expert, but all the books I have on the subject indicate that most big German guns of the period were shod with hard rubber on steel or aluminium rims. A rare few had pneumatic tyres and some WW I retreads still had wooden spoked, steel shod wheels.

I would be very interested in learning more about the subject as it is a huge gap in my knowledge of artillery technology.

I have relayed your query, I believe though by "rubber tyred" rims, a solid tyre is to be understood in this instance.

R.

Originally posted by Gunner
I would be very interested in learning more about the subject as it is a huge gap in my knowledge of artillery technology.

Indeed solid tyred as is evidenced by the typical view seen in this picture. Perhaps its a problem of national nomenclature !! To us, a tyre is anything affixed to the circumference of a wheel and typically might be steel, solid rubber or indeed pneumatic.

I'm told in general the Wehrmacht did keep to solid, and in a few cases pneumatic, tyres for motorised towing and simple steel for horse-drawn artillery; however, when needs must, it is likely this didn't always occur.

There is a further complication with the scale and scope of captured pieces, sometimes in quantity, being absorbed into the inventory as almost standard items. Thus you can readily find German guns on captured mounts and vice versa, plus the wholesale use of captured pieces apparently as-is but often with the barrels re-worked to standard German calibres; Russian pieces especially.

As an aside, not only did the T34 come as a bit of a shock to the Wehrmacht standard "indoctrination", but the power of Russian artillery too, which often well out-performed a similar calibre German piece. This led to urgent re-design of shells and propellant arrangements in many cases with an attendant re-think of recoil systems. The up-rating of ordnance of course thus opened a whole can of worms and led to many battlefield problems with the artillery as can be imagined.

It is a complex and often confusing subject in its own right I think.

R.

[Gunner]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I tend to use the British definition of a tyre as it is usually quite specific. I agree that the tyres are anything fitted to the rim; steel, solid rubber, pneumatic, or even, as shown in one of Dr Bill Gregg's books, cherry wood!

My question is about steel tyres on steel rims... all the references I have show that motor or horse drawn, the German made guns were fitted with solid rubber on stamped or cast rims. Field, medium and heavy guns with steel tyres would play havoc with metalled surfaces not to mention transfer all the vibration to the gun, accelerating wear. It wouldn't make sense to have a fleet of guns that had two different wheels as it would limit any upgrades to motorisation. It strikes me that bonding a rubber tyre or heat shrinking a steel tyre would cost about the same in time and energy.

German made guns I have examined seem to have, in part, dealt with shock absorption by fitting springs into the axle system. They also have complex mechanisms to lock out the suspension when the trails are opened.

It would be interesting to learn the assesment process that led to the Germans avoiding pneumatics as that decision impacted on all thier gun designs.

Cheers! Mike

[Bill Murray]

David:
I am going back a few days here, but as I understood your post, the Egyptian agents did in fact import US chassis/chassis cab.
I have little knowledge of the whole subject of exports from the US vis a vis Canada but my understanding is that if vehicles manufactured in Canada were exported to the then Empire countries there was little if any import tax levied. If on the other hand the vehicles came from the US they were fairly heavily taxed.

Further, it has always been my belief that RHD American vehicles were the responsibility of their Canadian subsidiaries and only LHD vehicles were shipped from US plants or CKD/PKD operations.

I suppose there could be some exceptions with very low volume producers but in the main I think my theory is correct.

So, to the Egyptian vehicles we are talking about here, is/was this some sort of special arrangement or did the Egyptian agents routinely import LHD vehicles from the US to be used for either civilian or military use. I am aware, of course, of the impressed vehicle situation that existed there at that time.

Would love to see pics of such vehicles if you have them or links to other sites dealing with the subject of vehicles used by Empire Forces that were sourced from Egypt or any other country in that geographic area.
Your fellow researcher.
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Bill, there is a commonly held fallacious belief that Canadian exports to British Empire countries were somehow less expensive when landed. See my file which covers this:

http://www.gmhistorian.btinternet.co...CEDEBUNKED.htm

As regards the exclusive rights, this essentially was a Ford issue I think, RHD Fords being to my knowledge exclusively Canadian sourced. Egypt I think drove on the right so there was no problem in that respect although the Alexandria operation could have imported from the US or Windsor.

The GM Near East facility was a CKD assembly plant and as such they imported the CKD kits from Chevrolet Bloomfield New Jersey Boxing Plant. This was a very slick boxing operation that had costs pared to a bone after many years of experience.

The only possible candidates for Alexandria assembled Chevrolets I know of are in the Wheels & Tracks issue on 'Desert Chevrolets' plus one more page I have from the GM Overseas Operations War Album:

Originally posted by Gunner
Thanks for the detailed reply.

My question is about steel tyres on steel rims... all the references I have show that motor or horse drawn, the German made guns were fitted with solid rubber on stamped or cast rims. Field, medium and heavy guns with steel tyres would play havoc with metalled surfaces not to mention transfer all the vibration to the gun, accelerating wear. It wouldn't make sense to have a fleet of guns that had two different wheels as it would limit any upgrades to motorisation. It strikes me that bonding a rubber tyre or heat shrinking a steel tyre would cost about the same in time and energy.

It does seem odd, however the gun recoil is probably far greater than even a walking pace shock over a hard surface, my friend says:
"Some of it is obvious and some of it is not so, to answer the last question first, the Germans were severely short of rubber, so any savings were welcome (ref late Tiger tank road wheels and some Panthers), in addition they used vast amounts of horses for towing, even the little infantry trailer (the Infantrie Karrier Jf8, like I have) is often steel tyred as it was only meant to be manual or horse pulled anyway.

But even then the Germans varied, most FLAK guns were on pneumatics, though really not meant to be fired on them, as they could all be dismounted for static use, but.......!.

PAK guns, above 3.7cm were almost all solid tyred, whilst ARTILLERY in general could be either solid rubber of solid steel, most if not all German pneumatic tyred artillery were captured items.

It has to be understood that most of the towed artillery would be found in the mass of German infantry divisions, which unlike their western counterparts, really were foot marching soldiers, they had no choice, they had few vehicles but many horses, and were this way until the end of the war.

Such considerations as worrying about metalled road surfaces (in a fighting zone !! or someone elses occupied country!!), upgrading to motorisation (what, with the German problems of vehicle manufacture and supply !!!) are rather unimportant.

These points maybe of great concern to a western army in WWII, but WWII was not like that for the Germans, shortages of equipment, vehicles, fuel, rubber etc., were everywhere from day one of the war until the end, and it DID govern their actions, where to fight, were to occupy, how long to stay somewhere, what to give up what not to give up, and so on and so on.......,including the design of vehicles and equipment, ammunition and even uniforms ."

R.

Originally posted by Gunner
My question is about steel tyres on steel rims... all the references I have show that motor or horse drawn, the German made guns were fitted with solid rubber on stamped or cast rims.

Mike, my tame historian called in yesterday. I had the chance to review briefly probably the best work on the subject and I think you'd find it indispensible.

Small Arms, Artillery & Special Weapons of the Third Reich.
By, Terry Gander and Peter Chamberlain
ISBN 0345 011 081

This is a massive and exhaustive work in full-size format and presented often in a Vanderveen like style with a chapter topic written preface, then followed using pictures with concise written data, very specialist and therefore I think probably expensive. I wish I had one.

Of note that jumped out of the pages was the massive scale of non-indigenous artillery usage, just about everything from everywhere, a logistic nightmare. Also of surprise, the early production and use of a Sten gun copy, albeit with their preferred vertical magazine.

As has been discussed elsewhere, the 40mm Bofors was not only an adopted type but captured nations realised some three plants making them and under Wehrmacht control continued so to the end.

In terms of transport (and wheels especially) we need to remember that 4/5ths of the German WWII army marched into battle, quite often pulling hand-carts, some horses and carts were a bonus. Army Group North alone took on charge 200,000 horses for Barbarossa.

R.

Originally posted by FV623
Small Arms, Artillery & Special Weapons of the Third Reich.
By, Terry Gander and Peter Chamberlain
ISBN 0345 011 081

I just found this:
http://www.alibris.com/books/isbn/11...0Third%20Reich

I guess $54.38 US for a used one isn't bad but I have never understood the ISBN system, this book seems to have changed number: 1170165797 well, according to Alibris that is.

However Book Butler at http://gb.bookbutler.info/Search.po;...D0R8Dzai8-Dz24 finds it by the first ISBN and it seems several are about at reasonable prices.

R.