Canadian Renault tanks

[cletrac (RIP)]

Does anyone have photos of the trainload of FT17's that the USA sold Canada for twenty bucks a ton, thus getting around the arms embargo? They were used for training down East. Not very realistic in the '40's, but better than nothing. The Germans used them for tractors as late as 1944! Probably the first really practical tank, even if it was French!

[Nick Balmer]

Hello

Although the film shows Marl VIII and not FT17's, you will enjoy the following footage.

1057.16 | US TANKS FOR CANADA (1:14:40:00 - 1:15:11:00) 30/09/1940

http://imagen.britishpathe.com/scrip...00000005&sif=1

Did any of these tanks actually operate in Canada?

Regards

Nick Balmer

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by cletrac
Does anyone have photos of the trainload of FT17's that the USA sold Canada for twenty bucks a ton, thus getting around the arms embargo? They were used for training down East. Not very realistic in the '40's, but better than nothing. The Germans used them for tractors as late as 1944! Probably the first really practical tank, even if it was French!

David:

Is this the photo you are looking for:

"Arrival of the Renault Tanks in Camp Borden, October 1940", Source: The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps: An Illustrated History

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

David;

Renault tanks, Camp Borden - a total of 236 Renaults were shipped to Camp Borden - at a cost of $20 per ton plus 100% making a total of $240 per tank. Source: The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps: An Illustrated History

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

David;

Found another picture of Renaults being used as trainers at Camp Borden:

Source: Dragons of Steel, Canadian Armour in Two World Wars

Cheers

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I wasn't going to respond to this topic simply because I KNEW Marko would...

There are lots of early-war pics of the FT-17s out there. It was a milestone event for us, courtesy of Worthington's foresight and ingenuity. Strange wee beasties, but necessary and a nice armoured bridge to the time when Vals (and later, Rams and Grizzlys) started rolling off our production line.

I wish there were more still in existence and running. They'd be a sight to see...

[Colin]

I guess most of them were cut up for scrap?

wonder if they used the metal to make Shermans?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Colin
wonder if they used the metal to make Shermans?

Most of the metal bits for Rams and Shermans built in Canada came from the US.
I'll bet you they were turned into CMPs!

H.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Colin
I guess most of them were cut up for scrap?

wonder if they used the metal to make Shermans?

Hi Colin;

Regarding the fate of the Renaults - from the book Dragons of Steel, Canadian Armour in Two World Wars - "When Canadian-built tanks made their appearance in 1942, the Renaults were sold off, not at bargain prices at any means. Purchased in bulk, the cost was $135 per tank and small orders, $250." - this quote is referenced to PAC, RG 24 Volume 2591.

Also, another photo of Renaults at Camp Borden:

Source: We Stand on Guard, An Illustrated History of the Canadian Army

Cheers

[cletrac (RIP)]

Thanks all. Great pics, great machines. Are there any left at all?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by cletrac
Thanks all. Great pics, great machines. Are there any left at all?

David;

There was one that was part of the Canadian Forces Base Borden Military Museum collection, that was in the area of Worthington Park, but I haven't been up to Borden since I left eleven years ago, so I don't know if its still there or not.

Cheers

Picture from the Museum Visitors Guide:

[servicepub (RIP)]

The Renaults were offered for sale to industry throughout Canada. Many companies, such as Sorel Shipyards and others, stripped off the armour and used them as yard tractors. The Cdn War Museum received one of these unarmoured toys a couple of years ago. I have no doubt that if a concerrted effort were made to visit some of these older companies more could be found.
It makes me think that I should dig out the Archives file dealing with their disposal and track down some of the buyers.....

[gcrossley]

There are a number of these tanks still in existence.

They are actually called the "6 Ton Tank M1917", and differ from the Renault in a number of ways, including the armour configuration, armament, front idlers and adjustment method, engine type and internal fittings.

The one in Borden is still there, with the gun mantlet upside-down as it has been for years, and the CWM has the remains of one, just the lower hull and tracks, or did last time I was a Vimy House a few years back.

In the USA, I was able to find a number of them, just by web search with "M1917 tank"

- Littlefield Collection
- Legion Hall - West Virginia
- Virginia War Museum (could be the same one?)
- Virginia Museum of Military Vehicles
- Patton Museum
- Hayes Otoupalik collection
- USMC Museum
- Military Museum of Southern New England

There are probably more out there, I wonder if anyone has compiled a list?

Gord

[c. ladouceur (RIP)]

Mr. Ed Beach had a very rough looking Renault tank at his farm in Uxbridge,Ontario .I saw it there about 10 years ago and took some pictures,( it might not be there now).

[Walde Libera]

I was on the base about 10 days ago, here are a couple pics of
the tank sitting outside.

regards Walde
Vancouver

[ramtank2]

What was the breakdown of cannon and MG armed vehicles, did these tanks have functioning armament upon arrival from US?

[peter simundson]

I have a colour video of them in training at Camp Borden. It is a long video and shows Barracks and our early MA jeep and many early CMPs. The clarity is striking.
Over the years I have seen five of these tanks bought and sold in Ontario. The worst condition was an exploded wreck we dragged out of Borden for Bill Gregg. He had one other at the time which as I recall had been lengthened. One near Lindsay actually ran.
A lot of them were scrapped at a Foundry in the West end of Guelph. Up to about 1980 there was still an empty turret in a back corner of the yard. The American who bought the two Gregg had actually traced where he got the tank from and went back and got the turret. True...Saw it strapped to a skid for shipping.

[Phil Waterman]

On the tread of US Renault tanks being shipped to Canada I have posted an article printed in the January 1941 issue of Popular Science that I thought people might enjoy. http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/C...lt%20Tanks.htm

Oh and Peter I got the clipping in the mail today thanks

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
David;

Found another picture of Renaults being used as trainers at Camp Borden:

Source: Dragons of Steel, Canadian Armour in Two World Wars

Cheers

Crickey, Mark...replace the Renaults with Grizzlys (c. 1980s), location between Pylon Hill and the Mink Farm..."Then and Now".

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

hehehe... I had one of the wildest rides I've ever experienced in the back of a Grizzly in the dunes about that time...

[rob love]

There is a story in one of the Ontario CMP magazines from the early 90s about 3 of these tanks which were rounded up in Ontario for Hayes Otoupalik. One was actually still on the Borden ranges, unknown to the range control staff. The other two came from Ontario farms.

[peter simundson]

The one on the Ranges did not go to Hayes. It was near the old Greiswald mechanical target range. I found it and it ended up with Mark Beveridge in Kansas. Most of the lower hull was there and, as I recall, the engine but it had been severely exploded.
It was in the bush on an old anti/tank range. The nice part was it had the tail on the back. Mark also got Gregg's tank. Which had been shortened (not lengthened). Mark also got this one,
but found later it had also been widened at the front to accomodate a new engine. So he got two. There was another in the Jack Innes collection in Oshawa which I think is the one Hayes got.
There were two others. One in the Reynolds collection in Wetaskiwin, which has a 1928 Buick Engine, and one just outside of Sudbury, complete but with the turret removed. It also had some squares cut out of the tracks, which was a common way to improve traction.
So there's the whole story. Actually there's more.
Peter Simundson.

[Steve Guthrie]

Hi there

There were a number of track and suspension components littering the old small arms range at CFB Kingston about 10 years ago.

Steve

[Phil Waterman]

While looking for a picture of something else I came across this photo of the ex-US T17 in Canadian Service. What was interested even then it must have been popular to drive tanks over cars.

[Phil Waterman]

Another car vs tank

[Grant Bowker]

Originally posted by peter simundson
Actually there's more.

When you have time, please tell us more.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi All

Did Canada actually take possesion of any of those Yankee Mk VIII "International" tanks?

I've heard that before from US Sources but have never heard it or seen it confirmed by any up here. FT17 from the US; sure but not the Mk VIIIs.

Thanks

regards
Darrell

[Roger Lucy]

No.
Canada did not take any of the surplus Mk.VIIIs. DND reviewed the list of available USA equipment forwarded by Brigadier Stuart, the Canadian representative on the newly formed Permanent Joint Board on Defence (PJBD) in August 1940. and decided that the Mk.VIIIs were of no interest. According to a brief outline of the history of the CAC which Worthington wrote in March 1945, a total of 236 Ford 6Ts were imported into Canada. They came without armament, a special application had to be made through the PJBD in October, 1940, to obtain 50 sets. As some of the Ford 6Ts were being used for gunnery training in April 1941 the 37mm guns must have been received by then.

The Ford 6T saga will be covered in my forthcoming Early Armour in Canadian Service part of Serive Publications Weapons of War series (www.servicepub.com)

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Roger

Thank you for the reply. It clears up what I had originally thought.

Now that begs the question: If the US thinks their Mk VIIIs went to Canada and they didn't; where did they go?

Maybe to the Contas?

regards
Darrell

[Roger Lucy]

Darrell,
The Ford 6Ts were sold to Canada as as “unsorted scrap" through a third party, U.S. Steel, with the payment channeled through the British War Purchasing Commission. This is just speculation, but perhaps US Steel also took the Mk.VIIIs as scrap and then melted them down? The answer may still exist buried in some US archive, but there is nothing on it in ours.
Roger