cv joint

Phil Innes · #1 19-01-07, 04:39

Hi everyone. Need some advice. I am beginning to reassemble the front axle on my f15a and had some more questions.

1. are brake parts painted same colour as rest of vehicle? I was going to have the brake shoes relined and wanted to paint them first.

2. has anyone replaced the steering knuckle oil seal felt? Are they available or is there material that can be used.

3. How is the constant velocity joint lined up with the pivot point, so the drive shaft is not forced forward and backward when the vehicle is turned? I am installing new bearings and there were no shims on the inner bearings when I disassembled it. Should I try different shims until they match up. The manual shows the use for shims to adjust wheel bearings, but I don't see any mention of cv joint adjustment.

Cheers
Phil

Bob Carriere · #2 22-01-07, 17:46

Hi Phil

Will get some pictures and more info from home tonite....meanwhile.

Item 1..... I have elected to paint all internal parts with POR 15 in a light grey almost identical to the early Ford engine grey. It seals the parts very well and you can see any future leaks very easily.

Item 2..... the large seals for the front axles are readily available for about $25...... will dig up the number tonite...

Item 3..... not sure which parts or shims you are referring to... the only shimd on the front axles are little disks with a central hole that fits on the pins.bearing that allows the axle to pivot for steering..... as to the centereing of the axle shafts withthe pivot I need to chat some more with you to propely understand.

Said shims are avaialble from Dirk in Holland or cannibalise other axles...... a lot fo the axles I have taken apart which had evidence of prior repairs had no shims left. Be caeful with the small top and bottom bearings that holds the pins.... they are no longer available except for NOS..... if you check Phil Waterman's site you will see a tool he made to regrease these bearing prior to re-installing.

More tonite.

Bob C.

Keith Webb · #3 22-01-07, 19:44

The backing plates are in vehicle colour whilst the shoes are a grey - unpainted but some sort of special coating. Wheel cylinders usually don't have paint on them.

Max Hedges · #4 22-01-07, 22:25

Phil, if you have a copy of a spare parts list for cmps that book has chart showing the types of universal joints and ball sockets used. Also showing 1st and 2nd types that were used.
Max

Tony Smith · #5 23-01-07, 03:42

The front bearings don't use shims to adjust preload, but rather a "Bottomless Teacup" shaped spacer which is(was) available in various specific sizes.
The brake shoes were zinc plated, but not galvanised, done electrolytically. If this finish has gone, a sandblast and POR15 grey will be the next best thing. Don't rely on just clean metal for the shoes. One of the major Achilles Heels of old CMPs is that moisture and dirt accumulate between the shoe and brake lining and the resulting flakes of rust that form cause the linings to bind on the drums, locking the wheel. As much rust preventative (not just paint) coating on the shoe as you can manage is GOOD for long term use.

Phil Innes · #6 23-01-07, 06:55

Hi All. Thanks for the paint colour info. Thanks Tony for the idea of painting the surface where the lining mounts. hadn't thought about protecting that from rust.
About the shims. It is like the bottomless teacup as Tony said. I borrowed a chevy manual, I didn't mention that my ford has the chevy axles, and it says it is a 'Front hub inner grease retainer'. Between the inner wheel bearing and the front axle. I'll maybe see if those are available from Ford or Chevy.
About the shimming. If I was to push the axle 1 inch into the hub (exagerating for effect) and turn the steering wheel, the universal joint would bind and be forced to the front or rear of the vehicle. It would not be pivoting at the same point as the steering knuckle. If the steering knuckle and universal joint are not pivoting on the same axis the axle could bend the inner axle seal. I'll try some different thickness spacers.
Thanks again for the help. Hopefully, soon I'll be able to contribute something. Its wonderful having the MLU site and all the other sites.

Phil

Mike K · #7 23-01-07, 11:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Phil Innes
Hi everyone. Need some advice. I am beginning to resemble the front axle on my f15a and had some more questions.

Phil , if you resemble a CV joint , I wouldn't want to run into you in a dark alleyway .

Mike

Bob Carriere · #8 23-01-07, 22:51

Hi Phil

one the centering of the inner axle cv joint...... when the front axle is completely assembled the inner axle will be automatically alligned because the last outer nut that you instal on the outisde of the brake drum keep that short shaft portion of the inner axle solidly in place..... it might move slightly but very littel is everythnig is up to spec.

AS to the axle grease retainer slinger which is shaped liek a large washer..... iof all the axles I ahve taken apart some have totally desintegrated others were cut into two washers some didn't have any...... I would not reisntal with out one as it obviously serves as a spacer...... Dirk as them in stock and prvided me with some.... amazing to compare the thickness of the NOS against the remainder of what I found.

Don't be fooled by the Chev axle on a Ford..... my Chev axle , like all others if filled with Furd brake parts.... Furd rear axle oil seals and Furd inner Rzeppa axle.

Which begs me to ask..... what kind of inner axle do you have... the one with the big ball bearing or the enclosed cup Rzeppa of earlier version....?? also does your front axle have a cast cover or a bolted cover to the front of the gear cluster.....

If I don't get to fuzzy at the Gracie's meeting tonite I will post some of my front axle pictures.

Hang in there we are both working on the same headache.

Bob

Phil Innes · #9 24-01-07, 00:46

Mike. I guess you'd call that a freudian slip. I close my eyes at night and all I see are Blitz parts. I look in the mirror and I see blitz parts. Make it stop. lol

Phil

Phil Innes · #10 24-01-07, 01:20

Hi Bob. My axle has the rzeppa type. found pictures you had posted with the type A and type B. My axle has a bolted cover. Thanks for the help.

Bob Carriere · #11 24-01-07, 04:40

Hi Phil

JUst blew in from Gracie's.... what a hoot...

What size Rzeppa??? have you taken them apart yet???

There are three sizes according to the Ford manual... which by the way is much more detailed on the Rzeppa than the Chebby book...... very small early type.... measure cross section.... small tupe and then the larger 60 series.....

The egg cup holder as a different bronze bushing with those that is differrent than the later type..... look at the old posting and if you have some need for additional explanation of pictures let me know ...... will help you if I can...... have you seperated the end pieces from the axle..... have you examined the pivot pins and bearings......

Send pictures if you can.

Bob

Phil Innes · #12 24-01-07, 05:31

Hi bob. I will take some measurements and pictures tomorrow.

cheers
phil

Lynn Eades · #13 24-01-07, 09:31

A brake is an energy converter. It converts kinetic (movement) energy into heat. The heat generated is mostly dissipated through the drum to the air. A small percentage of the heat is transferred from the lining to the brake shoe. If a "medium" is introduced, that is not a good conductor, it will reduce the efficency of that brake. I believe that "good practice" is to bond the lining to the shoe, or to rivet the lining directly to a clean brake shoe. If you are concerned about rust forming between the linings and the shoes, my advice,... have them bonded.

Phil Waterman · #14 24-01-07, 16:00

When you go to reassemble the drum on to the knuckle you need to be careful to see that the unit goes on and off in a straight line so that the gasket on the inside of the brake drum is not damaged. This is difficult too do by manually holding and lifting the drum while aligning the spines of the axle shaft. If you set up the spacers and bearing load according to the manual you will be pulling the drum off at least twice if you are lucky.

I’ve used a couple of methods over the years the best is with the drum slung from and over head hoist (see http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...eRemoveal.html ) toward the bottom of the page you will see the rear drum rigged for removal I use the same approach for removing and reinstalling all of the drums.

Or a roll around engine hoist anything that will allow you to align and hold the drum square to the knuckle until the load is picked up by the bearings. I have used a rolling floor jack to support he drum but this doesn’t hold it as steady.

Thirty years ago I thought nothing of trying to manhandle one of those drums off or on by hand, not any more.

Bob Carriere · #15 25-01-07, 03:07

Phil

Have you totally taken you axle apart.... by this I mean have you removed the egg cup from the axle flange....?? you know th one held by 8 bolts???

From what I ahve read... and others please jump in to comment... there seems to be a difference inside the egg cup where the inner axle fits in..... the early one which are designed witha larger bronze bushing and should only be used with the early Rzeppa and the later model which is used with the ball yoke type of arragement. By the wway it is my speculation/assumptions that the Rzeppa had greater use int he Ford than the Chev which stopped using the early model Rzeppa model at approx. the time they shifted to cab 12.

Are there any particualr picture you nned that I can look up in my files or take for you...??

You said you had reviewed some of my older MLU postings.... any need for more details.

In the next couple of weekends I will be re-assembling my egg cups using a modified engine stand so that I can assemble them in a vertical fashion...... Have you or are you replacing the inner oil seals...... I have the CR number and the one for the large 6.5 inch seal.... if you have trouble finding them I can get the Ottawa shop to ship directly to you or give you their He-male address.

I found out that the shop and parets manual for the Furd had much more information than the comparable MB-C2 book

Phil idea of suspending the brake drum is an excellent and safe practice. I am fortunate in having buddies aorund and they lend a hand when needed... I know that when we did the read drums Rob Clarke and I had to work together to get the on... defenitely not a safe one man job. We have built axle stands at a comfortable working level.... about 40 inches from the floor... Rob accidently torqued a nut and flipped his axle off the stand... no one was hurt but we did move back awful fast. Said stand has now been modified to prevent a reoccurance.

When you clean up your backing plate amke sure you do not get paint into the adjustment cams..... best to oil them after cleaning or sandblasting.... paint is less likely to jam them up if oiled.

Too bad you are so far.....

Bob

Phil Innes · #16 26-01-07, 01:51

Hi All. Sorry for the delay in replying. Was just about finished with my post and the computer froze. Doesn't like too many windows open at once.

Lynn. I've spoken with some others and they agree it is a good idea to bond the linings.

Phil. I think I will make something to hold the axles. Removed the brake drum and the hub is still heavy.

Bob and Phil
-The joint is 4.75 inches. I have not taken it apart. It is in good shape and tight and still was full of grease. Am wondering if I should use a modern cv joint grease or is any grease okay.

-This axle has the one large nut , like Phil shows on his site. My manual has the two nuts and describes using the spacer and shims for bearing adjustment. This is where I was confused, my axle had no spacer or shims. It was tightened as you would a front wheel on a 2 wheel drive. Are these spacers and shims used so the axle can be securely tightened and still have bearing clearance? The manual sort of shows the spacer goes between the bearings, as 'B' in photo, is this correct. Phil, did your axle have the spacer? Wondered if mine is missing or were they not used on the early models. If one of you had a photo of the spacer, it would help.

-My egg cup has the bronze bushing. Doesn't seem to have a purpose on my axle, there is no machined area on the axle. Wondered if it is used on other applications or have my axles been changed.

-'D' shows the inner grease retainer that did not fit the axle correctly. It flexed and broke in two pieces.

-I am replacing the bearings and seals. Bearings were in rough shape. Found the updated numbers on another post, a big help.

I have afew more pictures
Cheers
Phil

Phil Innes · #17 26-01-07, 02:06

Here is a picture of one of the bottom pivot bearings. Was pitted from water damage so thought I would move it to the top, then I saw the crack. Will maybe last a while if the crack is placed away from the angular force.

The number on the bearing was 928, can't remember the make

. I looked it up in a bearing crossreference book and found a Massey Ferguson number 900928. Has anyone tried the tractor suppliers or collectors. I will look around and let you know what I find.

Phil

Phil Innes · #18 26-01-07, 02:24

Hi had to purchase new brake cylinders for the front. couldn't sleeve them, they were cracked. Was looking in a brake parts catalogue for old Fords and found some that will work. Same shape, same diameter.

Raybestas #WC4571

Not sure if they will be the same on the later models or even the rear axle. Haven't taken it apart yet.

cheers
phil

Lynn Eades · #19 26-01-07, 07:40

The bush in your "egg cup" is only there for the other types of axle joints. Your axle is self supporting.
On brake linings, there will be different types available.
Some will work well wet or dry.some won't etc talk to the brake people about what is suitable for your application. You can also have your linings radius ground, to suit your drums. ( it makes fo good brakes straight away.
With the axle lube, talk to a lube specialist at one of the oil companies.
Pivot bearing. Get another, so you only have to do it once.

Bob Carriere · #20 29-01-07, 21:58

Read the message from Max for bearings....

Bob C.

Phil Innes · #21 31-01-07, 05:56

Bob. Thanks for doing that. Hope to hear from Max. crossing my fingers.

Cheers
Phil

Bob Carriere · #22 01-02-07, 03:55

Hi Phil

I assume you have the MB _ F1 or F2 as it contains the best detailed information for the Rzeppa dis-assembly sketches.

Here is a picture of the bottomless tea suacer greaser slinger cut in tow like yours.......

Bob Carriere · #23 01-02-07, 03:57

These grease slinger are readily available from Dirk and would not be expensive to mail ......

May also be available from Brian Ashbury......

Bob Carriere · #24 01-02-07, 04:07

Matter of lub and personal choice.....

From way back when I use to favour Moly grease suitable for heavy machinery with high loads......

... I still have a small can from Canadian Tire from the 70 when I played with dune buggies.....

Grant Bowker and I spent a Saturday afternoon takeing them a part one at a time so as not to mix the parts...... wash in solvent rinsed in gasoline..... dried... and painfully re-assembled lubing all individual parts with Moly grease.... we wore Blue nitril gloves.. it is a very messy deal... but fun...... having a second set of hands is priceless...... imagine having to pick up another piece and your hands a full of Moly... once finished we wired the screws and used Blue LockTite as well....... greased the outside lightly and wrapped in green garbage bags........

Now I have the piece of mind of knowing what shape there in and how they work.......

Take the same care with the Wheel bearings ...... will be ordering new ones next week........ expect to fork out 350 for a set of bearings and races........ make sure you get good pivot bearings...... it is not worth doing the job again.......

Next picture the seals.... again readily available.. inner at $10 and the big 6.5 in at $25...... if you have difficulty getting them let me know......

Alan Nicholas · #25 02-02-07, 02:56

The king pin pivot bearings that you are chasing are "New Departure" 928 and they are as rare as rocking horse poop.
Regards
Alan Nicholas

rob love · #26 02-02-07, 04:19

I sold Chris Vickery almost all of my kingpin bearings a bunch of years back. You can check with him in case he has any left.
I have 4 of these "rocking horse poops" still kicking around. Sad part is that I don't even have a CMP anymore, and don't plan on getting one anytime soon, and yet I cannot part with these. Packratting is truly a disease.

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #27 02-02-07, 04:30

Quote:

Originally posted by rob love
Packratting is truly a disease.

Welcome to the club, Rob....

Phil Innes · #28 05-02-07, 02:48

Bob. Purchased new bearings, races and seals for my front axle. Ouch.

Will have to live on bread and water for the next month. Sent Dirk a order. Maybe he will have pivot bearings and the spacers. His site listed a number of spacers and grease slingers with different letter suffixes, most likely for different axles. I don't have the parts list so he maybe will know by the size of my axle which ones fit.

Rob. I will give Chris a try. Could do with one bearing, three still had grease. Let me know if you ever want to part with one.

Working on the rear axle. Both emergency brake cables were missing. Also missing was the mount for the cable on the brake backing plate(see photo). If anyone has this piece on a wrecked backing plate, I would be happy to buy it from you. I don't think it would be difficult to manufacture this piece if I have to.

Phil

Bob Carriere · #29 05-02-07, 03:01

.....BUT you sound happy....!!!!!!

You will not regret the new parts...... gives you peace of mind...

Yes Dirk has all those small pieces....

...which part number did you need... I can try to look them up... or check with Alex.....

On the pivot bearings.... go to Phil Waterman's site and check the tool he made to regrease them with a grease gun before re-installing...... If we can't find you new ones I will see if I can scrounge a half decent one for you...... no guarantee on condition but still in one piece..... is better than that cracked one you showed us......

Make sure you relub all the RZeppa parts by hand... no dry assembly... you should contact Dirk again and get yourself a new set of felt seals and flat spring for your front axle.... NOS.... you willnot find them anywhere else..... do it once do it right......

Hang in there....

Bob

Bob Carriere · #30 05-02-07, 03:08

... the rear axle.......

Remember that our brake parts are similar Ford and Chev.... repro cables are available fromMac Auto in Niagara Falls NY.....

Stew.... do you still have the part number......

As for the bracket you showed... there is a left and a rigth side I believe..... made of cast they are easy to break when you tried to loosen them up with all the rust...... would have to chek to see if the Chev is identical to Ford.... I think so..... and need to know what side........ problem is my parts inventory is rather frozen right now........ and they can be hard to remove... some are bolted some are rivetted.... and you would not want to hammer away at the river for fear of breaking the casting...... usually use a grinder to remove the rivet head.... heat and punch out.....

Hope you have money left for the rear axle seals......hihihi

Bob