M3A1 Scout Car Ambulance

[Ghost]

One for the brains trust,
I have seen peroid photographs of white scout cars set up as ambulances serving with the British & American armed forces.
Quick question........ Is there any evidence of Australian White Scout Cars being converted or used as armoured ambulances? Any exterior or interior photos?

Thanks,
Robert Williams

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

This one on AWM site looks pretty basic...
http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/011720

ID number011720
Description 1942-03-09. AMERICAN "LEASE-LEND" EQUIPMENT. THE "WHITE" SCOUT CAR IS USE AS AN AMBULANCE.

[Mike Cecil]

Richard,

The image is almost certainly not Australian, despite the source. The AWM collection contains many images sourced from other countries.

Among other reasons, the registration number does not fall within the range of White M3A1 Scout Cars (in any confuguration) in the Australian Army, ie '35302' or '135302' or '135382'.

Nor have I ever seen reference to - or an image of - a White Scout car being converted in any way for use as an armoured ambulance by the Australian Army: maybe someone else out there in MLU land has?

Mike C

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Mike,
I assumed from the wording:
"1942-03-09. AMERICAN "LEASE-LEND" EQUIPMENT. THE "WHITE" SCOUT CAR IS USE AS AN AMBULANCE."

used on this photo, and this one taken on the same day:
http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/011721
"1942-03-09. AMERICAN LEASE-LEND EQUIPMENT. TESTING GROUND. EACH VEHICLE IS GIVEN RIGID TESTS TO ENSURE NOTHING WILL GO WRONG ON THE FIELD OF BATTLE. A GUN TRACTOR IS SHOWN HERE AS IT GOES BOUNCING ACROSS THE GROUND.

that perhaps the Ambo. was a demonstration model, not neccessarily in use.
By the way, that last photo is a cracker!
Nothing ever seems to be cut and dried with the AWM Photo collection.
Rich.

[Mike Cecil]

Richard I can only agree, especially as the picture of the CMP gun tractor was taken in Canada, and the type was not supplied to Australia under the Lend-Lease/Lease-Lend Agreement (which was with the USA).

Canadian imports into Australia were credited to the Mutual Aid Program administered by Canada - sort of the Canadian version of the LL agreement (but I'm sure a Canadian MLU-er can provide more detail on that: it is a really interesting program, and not generally well known to Australians, more's the pity. Australia owes Canada a great debt for the Mutual Aid Program.)

Mike C

[Richard Farrant]

Think I have solved the White mystery, it is in British army service. A batch of M3A1 White scout cars had Census numbers, F35378 to 35526, so this one is F35382.

[Peter Hommes]

Pickup from the web today



Peter Hommes

[Andrew]

The problem with that, no access to the rear for strechers. They would have to be lifted over the side, i assume that was in emergency's and not used regurlarly

[motto]

Note that the skate rail has been removed. From my experience this makes the hull sides very floppy and I doubt the vehicle could be operated for very long in this configuration without serious problems, particularly with door closure.The armour plate on these vehicles was a very precise fit. The Australian armoured observation post conversion retained the skate rail probably for this reason as the additional sloped armour made the rail useless as a gun mounting for most of its length.

David

[Lynn Eades]

Army council instructions demanded the immediate refit of the skate rail to any vehicle that had had it removed. The skate rail is part of the structual integrity of the vehicle. This instruction dated 13th July 1942.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here is one in use by the Royal Netherlands Marine Corps (RNMC) at Soerabaja, Java, Netherlands East-Indies/Indonesia. December 1946. The mobile hospital of their medical company (MED CIE) had two of these armoured abulances.

The RNMC was trained in the USA and they used US equipment throughout. As the Netherlands East-indies Army KNIL had received a batch of these Scout Cars before WW2 broke out in the Pacific, these ambulances may have been converted from re-captured vehicles.


Source, Source 2

[Jesse Browning]

Ambulance with a machine gun?

[Mike Cecil]

No Red Cross therefore not seeking the protection of the GC?

In any event, more modern AFVs don't seem to worry about combining the two - the Aust M113A1 armoured ambulance had a T50(Aust) turret with a 30/50, plus a red cross symbol on the sides.

The M3A1 seems to still have its skate rail except across the back, which would overcome the problem of the armour flapping.

Mike

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jesse Browning

Ambulance with a machine gun?

I asked that question of a Canadian Afghanistan combat medic. The principle of self-defence has never been removed from the agreements. The medic said he carried a C7 and the Bison Ambulance had a C6 MG in order to protect himself, his crew and his patients.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by Jesse Browning

Ambulance with a machine gun?

Under the 1929 Geneva Convention (which would have applied at the time), medics may use armed force to protect themselves and the wounded under their care from enemy aggression, without forfeiting the protection afforded to them by the convention. They may not use weapons offensively, however. (It seems that a lot of military personnel don’t know this, though, and would consider any armed medic to be in violation and thus, liable to get shot.)

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

No Red Cross therefore not seeking the protection of the GC?

That would hardly have mattered, given that this is a Korps Mariniers vehicle in the Netherlands Indies, probably during one of the “police actions” that were to suppress Indonesian independence fighters. The Geneva Convention does not apply to internal struggles, only to wars between signatory nations.