Tank AA, 20 mm Quad, Skink

[Hanno Spoelstra]

For an update on two survivng Skink turrets, see AFV News board > BLUE SKINK TURRETS.
See http://s87.photobucket.com/albums/k130/ldshrecceboy/ for recceboy's pictures.

These turrets have casting numbers 80 (in background) and 81 on the back of the turrets. They have much less damage than for example casting number 78 shown above. Although these are unmachined, these are a good basis for the recreation of a Skink turret on a Grizzly hull.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Orginally posted by Roger Lucy on AFV News Discussion Board:

The records indicate that all three completed Skinks were built on Grizzly hulls. Pilot No.1 with the welded turret and HS guns (it was later refitted with a cast Polsten turret and sent to Borden) was according to one DND file on hull 62-918.

Pilot No. 2, with a cast turret, was installed on Grizzly hull 62-727 (CT 163931) and sent to the UK for evaluation. It served in field trials in NW Europe in early 1945, after which it was returned to the UK - title was transferred to the UK account on 2 August 1945. It's fate is unknown.

Pilot No.3 on Grizzly hull 62-728 (CT 163932) was sent to No.1 Proving Ground in Ottawa, it was photgraphed at the CNE in 1946. The eight completed but unmounted turrets were sent to Longue Pointe Ordnance Depot (LPOD), the last mention I have found of their existence was in 1947.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Anthony Sewards (Login recceboy) wrote at Missing-Lynx forum:

They came from Veron , BC. they were on the rifle range out there. When my unit"Ldsh (RC) "was out there to fight the fires we asked who they belonged to. Then we started the slow process to get them transfered back to us.We are planning to send one to the Canadian War Museum and hang onto the other one , maybe a Skink prototype in the works as the Historical troop has a line on a set of guns and a M4A1 complete hull.

[John McGillivray]

It seems that the Fort Garry Horse received a Skink sometime in February 1945 for testing. The following is from their Regimental history “Vanguard’:

(p97) “And a new curiosity the ‘Skink’ Anti-aircraft tank, arrived for operational tests.”

[Roger Lucy]

During its European tour with the Skink, 1 Tank Demonstration Unit played with 10 CAR from 11-19 February. They were doing the Reichswald at the time.
Roger

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Jordan Baker wrote: "I located the CMHQ file on the Skink AA tank. It goes from pages 4-300. Page 249 confirms that Skink marked SKC1001 was sent to NWE for field combat trials. A new unit was formed called the No.1 Canadian Tank Demonstration Unit."

https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...80/249?r=0&s=2

This is SKC1001. Note it has been fitted with CDP tracks:

[Chris Johnson]

Can anyone hazard a guess as to what the script says on the turret?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Chris Johnson

Can anyone hazard a guess as to what the script says on the turret?

Could they be shipping dimensions and weights?

[Jordan Baker]

Courtesy of Mark Tonner.

The War Diaries of No.1 Tank Demonstration Unit, CAC.

[Jordan Baker]

next batch

[Jordan Baker]

the next next batch

[Jordan Baker]

and the last page. Thanks again Mark

[Alex van de Wetering]

Jordan, Mark, Hanno....thanks for this very interesting info and posting it here!


From this thread: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...391#post272391

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Firing the quad 20-mm Polsten guns at the Sherman Crab would coincide with the "very shallow downward angle hit" which Alex described. It is a long shot, maybe even very speculative, but it may be worth looking into?

I looked up all mentioned Map References to see if the Skink visited Broekhuizen, but the closest the Skink got to Broekhuizen was about 40km's, so I guess it's safe to say the damage on Avalon wasn't done by demonstration of the Skink.

[Alex van de Wetering]

For anyone wanting to look up map references in War diaries, you can use this tool here:

https://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-translator.php#

Start with the global location mentioned in the war diaries, for example "Nijmegen". Check a map to see the location of Nijmegen, and find the corresponding letter code here....in this case "qE"



than take the mentioned Map Reference (MR) 712642 from the War diary and combine it with the 2 letters "qE712642" and use the translator, select "Nord de Guerre Grid" in the first box (corresponds with the grid above) and type the number in the second box to find the location.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I looked up all mentioned Map References to see if the Skink visited Broekhuizen, but the closest the Skink got to Broekhuizen was about 40km's, so I guess it's safe to say the damage on Avalon wasn't done by demonstration of the Skink.

Thanks for disproving my hypothesis.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Thanks for disproving my hypothesis.

Yes, sorry about that, Hanno. I was kind of hoping the war diaries would prove otherwise.....what a find that would have been!

Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Yes, sorry about that, Hanno. I was kind of hoping the war diaries would prove otherwise.....what a find that would have been!

Don’t be, that’s what research is about. Checking if any of the hypothesis are true or false, until you’re left with the true (or most likely) history.

Haven’t read it all, but noted it got stuck in the mud several times. Something to do with driver’s skill or the CDP track? I think this was the first time that track was used in action (another hypothesis)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Haven’t read it all, but noted it got stuck in the mud several times. Something to do with driver’s skill or the CDP track? I think this was the first time that track was used in action (another hypothesis)

Have read the War Dairy now, and took these notes to create a time line:

• 24-Jan-1945: Skink arrived at Antwerp
• 28-Jan-1945: moved off by train
• 29-Jan-1945: Skink arrived at Eindhoven by train
• 4-Feb-1945: moved to Nijmegen
• 16-Feb-1945: Skink moved from Grave to Kleve
  
  
• 19-Feb-1945: 1-TDU remained with TAC HQ (not going into action?) at Kleve
  
  
• 25-Feb-1945: 1-TDU moved off with 3 Sqn 22-CAR and a Coy of Argyle Sutherland Highlanders to SL south-west of Kalkar
  
  
• 26-Feb-1945, South of Kalkar: armour and infantry gone in on the attack, 1-TDU followed and engaged in mopping up role. Fired on by 88-mm, no hits made. Large number of buildings set on fire using HE IT ammunition. Heavy mortar fire, wounding Lt. Case.
  
  
• 27-Feb-1945, Kirsel: Covering positions taken up for expected counter attack.
  
  
• 1-Mar-1945, Hochwald gap: Skink became bogged and remained there for the night.
• 2-Mar-1945, Hochwald Gap: Skink pulled out by recovery vehicle.
  
  
• 3-Mar-1945: 1-TDU to support 22-CAR and LSR attack through Hochwald gap laying down covering fire on A/T positions. Skink bogged down within first few yards of the advance. Extricated one hour later, moved forward without seeing further action and then withdrew.
  
  
• 9-Mar-1945, Winnenthal: 1-TDU attached to 21-CAR and LSR moved into attack on the woods. Skink became bogged down, unable to move. Under heavy sniping and mortar fire while bogged down, withdrawing 12 hours later.
  
  
• 10-Mar-1945, Sonsbeck: 1-TDU moved off to RHQ 29 CAR, delay in arrival being due to Skink becoming bogged down en route.
  
  
• 16 - 20-Mar-1945, Eindhoven: unit prepares to return to England
• 23-Mar-1945, Eindhoven: Skink loaded on transporter to arrive at embarkation point at Antwerp.
• 24-Mar-1945: Skink loaded onto LST, sailing across the channel to dock at Tilbury on 25-Mar moving on to Transit Camp S4 at Dagenham
• 27-Mar-1945: Skink picked up at Transit Camp and transported to CBW for overhaul. Personnel proceeded to 3 CACRU, two Captains to CMHQ, London to complete reports.
• 28-Mar-1945, London: 1-TDU disbanded.

So the Skink did see some action, although it did not do a lot more than setting a large number of buildings on fire using HE IT ammunition. It did bog down at least four times! We know the going was rough in the Hochwald Forest, though maybe the performance of the CDP track may have played a role. Or possibly driver experience?

I wonder what "CBW" did with the Skink when they received it for overhaul?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Added photos to the post by Roger Lucy:

The records indicate that all three completed Skinks were built on Grizzly hulls. Pilot No.1 with the welded turret and HS guns (it was later refitted with a cast Polsten turret and sent to Borden) was according to one DND file on hull 62-918.

Welded rolled armour turret, with Hispano Suiza guns at full elevation. All hatches are open and the deflector sight deployed. Waterloo Manufacturing Company - 20 December, 1943.

Pilot No. 2, with a cast turret, was installed on Grizzly hull 62-727 (CT 163931) and sent to the UK for evaluation. It served in field trials in NW Europe in early 1945, after which it was returned to the UK - title was transferred to the UK account on 2 August 1945. It's fate is unknown.

Skink, as sent to England for trials, with all its markings and stowage. Notice the CDP tracks and "high bustle" turret

Pilot No.3 on Grizzly hull 62-728 (CT 163932) was sent to No.1 Proving Ground in Ottawa, it was photgraphed at the CNE in 1946. The eight completed but unmounted turrets were sent to Longue Pointe Ordnance Depot (LPOD), the last mention I have found of their existence was in 1947.

Skink number 62-728 (WD Number CT163962) on display at Dennison Armouries - Toronto, Canada - 1946. VVSS Sherman tracks and sprocket.

Photos via http://panzerserra.blogspot.com/2011...n-aa-tank.html

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

So the Skink did see some action, although it did not do a lot more than setting a large number of buildings on fire using HE IT ammunition.

From a defunct website we learn some more:

A First Canadian Army evaluation report on the Skink read "In a ground support role, the vehicle was an infantry mop-up weapon, advancing with the second wave of armour to clean out infantry positions bypassed by the first wave. Using HEIT ammunition, the Skink proved most valuable in setting fire to buildings, thus forcing the enemy out into the open."

Other field reports described the effects of a burst of 20mm HEIT rounds directed at enemy-occupied buildings or hedgerows. In one instance, the Skink attacked a building occupied by 50 enemy soldiers. Ten of them were wounded by HEIT fragments, the others surrendered in terror. Another time, the Skink commander was fired on by a sniper. Unhurt but furious, the commander directed the Skink's guns to fire in the direction of the sniper. The 20mm's blasted away everything in the surrounding area and in moments the shaken sniper emerged.

[strat1]

A 4th turret has been located, used as a monument, the forth turret is sitting next to a War Memorial outside the Okanagan Indian Band, Band Office, British Columbia.

Anthony

[Hanno Spoelstra]

This turret cast is owned by the Historic Vehicle troop at LdSH(RC) at CFB Edmonton

Photos via Raymond Gedge

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Scan from a manual. It mentions one Skink pilot vehicle was shipped to England. See the rest of this thread to read what happened to it.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Are you sure that’s a scan from a manual and not from either some kind of report, or an early(ish?) enthusiast’s publication?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

Are you sure that’s a scan from a manual and not from either some kind of report, or an early(ish?) enthusiast’s publication?

Hi Jakko, yes, the page comes from Data Book Tank type vehicles of Canadian manufacture, a wartime data book or reference manual.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Ah, OK, I see — it just has that look about it of being written by some 1960s AFV enthousiast

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Anthony Sewards shared actual Skink in action reports and recommendations from Capt. H Valle , No. 1 Tank Demonstration Unit CAC from use in NWE.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

… and the last three pages:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

New online article:

https://warspot.net/484-anti-aircraft-lizard

[strat1]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

New online article:

https://warspot.net/484-anti-aircraft-lizard

Attachment 126234

The attached WarSpot article has some issues with some incorrect information, and is a miss mash up of various documents/ reports. There was more than one SKINK built, there were 3 completed, 1 stayed in the UK( deployed to NWE spring of 45), 2 remained in Canada (used post war in trials as late as 1947), all the hulls were not scrapped from the project, they ended up being sent to Portugal as part of the MDAP in the mid 50's, most being converted to APC's. There are 4 known SKINK turret survivors, only 2 were used as Range targets, the other 2 were used as range arc markers and were saved by the Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) in 2003. One turret is still with the Regiment, the other was sent to the Canadian War Museum in exchange for spare parts for vehicle restoration projects.