Kangaroo Photos wanted

[Bill Miller]

Hi Mark,

I agree, I can't see why the doors wouldn't have been left functioning. Not much use on a "convertible" however!

However, if the Brit crews were as inventive as our own guys they might have found a use for them? I have not come across any anecdotes though.

In my recent document reading I can see that in August of '44 the orders were given to create 100 Ram personnel carriers and 56 Ammunition Carriers. The original specs for the Ammn Carriers were to have "doors" cut in the sides of the hulls. As this was not deemed practical they opted for a covered turret aperature with a square hatch. All the Ammn carriers in the intial order were built from later model Rams with no doors (CT numbers range between 159507-159905)...?

I think it is odd that if you want a carrier with doors in the side you wouldn't at least think about starting with a hull that had doors already built in? Though I can recognize that that pre-existing doors in the early Ram hulls were probably too small to be useful. for the passage and stowage of ammo boxes. Also, I see a mention in that the batteries would be moved up to the sponsons from the floor making side door access difficult.

Bill

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
In my recent document reading.....

Hi Bill;

Is this what you've been reading:

30-10-3/CAC
Main HQ First Cdn Army
31 Jul 44
MEMORANDUM TO SD
Provision of Armd Amn Carrier

or

1/Veh Armd Amn/1 (SD(E))
MEMORANDUM
10 Aug 44
SD, First Cdn Army
LAYOUT SKETCH
VEH ARMD AMN

Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
I think it is odd that if you want a carrier with doors in the side you wouldn't at least think about starting with a hull that had doors already built in? Though I can recognize that that pre-existing doors in the early Ram hulls were probably too small to be useful. for the passage and stowage of ammo boxes. Also, I see a mention in that the batteries would be moved up to the sponsons from the floor making side door access difficult.

It is equally possible that the Canadian Army didn't have any of te early models available. With the exception of those in Canada and those at the CRU, most of these early models had already been handed off to the Brits.

[Bill Miller]

Hi Mark,

I have both files you mentioned. Though when I recieved hardcopy of:
1/Veh Armd Amn/1 (SD(E))
MEMORANDUM
10 Aug 44
SD, First Cdn Army
LAYOUT SKETCH

There was no sketch attached, though it is mentioned several times in related file documents.


Clive:
I had forgotten about the intial allotment of Rams to the British in July.
I made a count in the document:
13/AFV Ram/1/16: Memorandum to DDME: 3 Jul 44

241 Rams of the 39000-40000 series and 204 of the 159000 series. The earliest # was CT 39832 and the latest model was CT 159895.

This was a fair chunk of the early Mk.II's but some would still available.

Later memorandum, between October 1944 and January 1945, I have indicates a further 330 Rams to be sold to the British. However I cannot find confirmation of the shipment or a list of actual tanks (CT#'s) these memo also mention that some of these 330 Rams converted to Kangaroos would be given to 15 Army Group in Italy. That did not happen, so did the British army receive the additional 330 Rams before the end of the war?

Interesting related memos: In the files concerning the Badger flame throwers I found memos from Dec'44 and Jan'45 about the cannibalizing of early Rams at the CRU's for their auxillary turrets. Those turrets (47 in all, I think) were then used as hatches in the armouerd plate covering the turret rings on the Badgers. There is a rather famous photo of a Badger that quite clearly shows the auxillary turret/hatch. The amputee Rams at the CRU's were to have a tarp replace the missing aux. turret!

Bill.

[Al Nickolson]

Hi,

I took this photo last month at Bovington.

Al

[servicepub (RIP)]

Here is a photo of an early Badger. This example was put together by 1st Canadian Base Workshop.

http://www.servicepub.com/images/cl-5-49.jpg

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Hi Mark,

I have both files you mentioned. Though when I recieved hardcopy of:
1/Veh Armd Amn/1 (SD(E))
MEMORANDUM
10 Aug 44
SD, First Cdn Army
LAYOUT SKETCH

There was no sketch attached, though it is mentioned several times in related file documents.

Hi Bill;

I never received the sketch either

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Miller

1/Veh Armd Amn/1 (SD(E))
MEMORANDUM
10 Aug 44
SD, First Cdn Army
LAYOUT SKETCH

There was no sketch attached, though it is mentioned several times in related file documents.

Bill.

Mark, Bill,

If you send me the Archives reference number (RG 24, Vol. ????) I will pull it and take a look.

[Roddy de Normann]

Cor Blimey - just can not keep up !

In addition ref Kangaroos...

I have been sorting out the mass of paper that always seems to clutter the place. This morning I stumbled on a letter that was sent to me back in June 1996. This was from a former soldier of the 2nd Ox & Bucks LI, fighting through Holland:

'...we were travelling in Kangaroos in the advance on Winterswijk in Holland on Good Friday (30/3/44). We were in 12 Kangaroos when we came up against 'fallschirmjaeger' of the 7th Fsj Division at 'Het Woold', about 5 kms from Winterswijk. As this was a somewhat new squadron of Kangaroos, they pulled up in a straight row on a road with a deep ditch on both sides. Instead of leaving room for manoeuvering, they parked nose to tail.

'A solitary German 'Sturmgesutz' commanded by one Leutnant Heinz Deutsch, holder of the 'Ritterkreuz', commenced to shoot up the Kangaroos as if it were a turkey shoot. From a total of 12 Kangaroos and two tanks, he hit one tank and eight Kangaroos. We suffered about 14 dead and and nearly 20 wounded. The dead are buried an the cemetary at Winterswijk, along with one member of the RAC who was killed at the same time and one member of the HLI who was killed the next day when we entered Winterswijk.

'I personally met with Lt Heinz Deutsh for the first time at his home in Kelkheim, near Frankfurt in 1990. We became very good friends but sadly he died last October [Oct 95] after a long illness. He was also part of the 7th Fsj Div, "Sturmgeschutzebrigade 12". This division was only formed in the Autumn 44, under the command of the Generalleutnant Erdmann, who after the war killed himself in a British POW Camp. Between the Maas and the Rhine, Heinz Deutsch destroyed 35 Allied armoured vehicles...'

If I recall correctly, has there not been a past thread on this action ?

Roddy

[ Moderator's note: message split from thread RamTank.ca and merged into this one. ]

[Dave Block]

DND archives PA-175529 captioned as British 49th APC Regt. in Kranenberg Germany, Feb.9, 1945

Cheers, Dave

[Hanno Spoelstra]

CT40220?

From Dennis' collection:

[dennis trowbridge]

hanno.
photos of bovingtons kangaroo [click on photo]
dennis

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by dennis trowbridge
hanno.
photos of bovingtons kangaroo

Thanks Dennis!

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Crew of a turretless Ram tank used by The Fort Garry Horse as a "flat-top" armoured ambulance, Holten, Netherlands, 8 April 1945

(L-R): Troopers Joe Fine and Bob Wright, Corporal Frank Aikens

Credit: Lieut. Dan Guravich / Canada. Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-133165

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
My Archivanet search turned up about a half dozen or more photos in this series at Wertle, same photographer, same archives accension date. So there may be more Kangaroo photos related to this particular photo?

Bill, what about this one?

"Infantrymen of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada riding on a Kangaroo armoured personnel carrier, Wertle, Germany, 11 April 1945 "

Credit: Capt. Alexander M. Stirton / Canada. Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-159065

[Bill Miller]

Hi Hanno,

It's a Canuck Kangaroo. Mark answered this one earlier in this thread (about 2 pages ago)

"If indeed it was taken at Wertle, the Kangaroos would be those of "B" Sqn, 1 CACR and the tanks would be those of the 21 Cdn Armd Regt (GGFG)."

I wish the photo included the front end of the tank.

I am quite interested in the "flat-tops" from the other regiments however, particularly the armoured ambulances. It looks like the Red Cross was painted directly to the hull. It would also be interesting to know if they had any special fittings attached on the inside (or out)? In all the archival files I have retieved I haven't come across any documentation about these Armd Ambulances.

Bill.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
It's a Canuck Kangaroo. Mark answered this one earlier in this thread (about 2 pages ago)

Yes I know, that is why I replied to it in this thread as you were asking if there were "more Kangaroo photos related to this particular photo?" - so here's one

In all the archival files I have retieved I haven't come across any documentation about these Armd Ambulances.

I am not really surprised by that, as the official Ram tank holding listings only mention Gun Towers, Ammunition Carriers, Personnel Carriers and Wasp equipped turretless Rams. So those ambulances must have been field conversions.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Note the Ram Kangaroo in the background.

National Archives of Canada, PA 113872 "R.C.A.M.C. personnel loading casualty into ambulance jeep, Sonsbeck, Germany, 6th March 1945"


Source: http://collections.ic.gc.ca/courage/...andbeyond.html

The link is dead so I deleted the original post. Attached below is the same picture.

"Personnel of the Royal Canadian Army Medical Corps (R.C.A.M.C.) loading a casualty into a Willys MB ambulance jeep, Sonsbeck, Germany, 6 March 1945

Credit: Capt. Jack H. Smith / Canada. Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-113872"

[Bill Miller]

Hi Hanno,

Thanks for posting links to the Ram Census info... neat stuff.

I suspect that with no post-war documentation refering to Kangaroo Armd Ambulances that there were no specific modifications (like the Jeep Ambulance in the photo you posted). Rather they were simply Kangaroos with a red cross?

Speaking with my Dad, he says that the 1CACR were issued large bed sheets with a red cross painted on them when they were pressed into service to carry the wounded. The sheet was either draped over the side of the hull or put up on a pole...

Interestingly enough that is the only way I caught the kangaroo in this still from some unused Pathé newsreel footage. It only lasts a second or so. Mid January 1945, Operation Blackcock.

British Pathé reel number 1978.02 frame 127

[Bill Miller]

Also, reagrding the Public Archives photo of the Jeep ambulance in SOnsbeck.

Where there is a still photographer, there is usually a cinematographer. The Archives photos are a good lead to look for matching newsreel footage and vice versa.

Here is the newsreel footage that matches the photo (different angle, same scene).

British Pathé #2121.09. Unfortunately the Jeep Ambulance is obscuring the Kangaroo, but it does show up for a half second ...

[Bill Miller]

The elusive Priest Kangaroo, taken sometime between Sept14-17, 1944 in or near Boulogne.

I found this a few nights ago in Pathé clip 2109.02. Again more unused footage. I have an original American Press photo (sorry no scan available right now) that confirms the location.

Here is the abbreviated 5 second sequence.

[Bill Miller]

Large.

[Bill Miller]

...as long as I posting photos, I post my current favourite of the month!

A Squadron troop officer, Lt. John Campbell was nice enough to give me a copy of this photo of him and his driver and gunner. (The crew of "Helen"). taken March-April of 1945.

Bill.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Bill;

Is that what I think it is in the Sonsbeck clip:

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Bill;

... and there it is again......

Cheers

[Bill Miller]

From the 1CACR War Diary:
November 18, 1944
Stencils for marking vehicles have been made up locally, showing the Tactical Number 157 on a green and blue background, and another showing an orange Kangaroo in a black circle. The Tech, Adjt., Capt. Rook, had signs painted on a tank and a 'B' vehicle as examples for the remainder of the vehicles.

December 18, 1944
The Commanding officer, Lt. Col. Churchill approved the regimental design (Kangaroo) to be painted on all vehicles, Kangaroo in Orange (Holland's National Colour) within a black circle.

From looking at the weather reports in the Diaries (a lot of rain and cold, wet weather) and some notations regarding delays in maintenance and painting, I would surmise that not all the tanks and B vehicles got fully marked by the time they went into action in early January. After that, there would be no time for painting until they stood down for maintenance just before the Rhine crossings. The lack of markings showing up in photographs from 1945 would support this. I would think "command" vehicles were highest priority for painting and trickled down from there.
Even though I have several dozen photos of 'B' vehicles now, I have none that show the "Kangaroo" stencil.

It is also possible that once they came under command of the 79th Armoured on December 21st that they were only to display the 79 AD "Bullshead" and 31 Tk Bde "Diablo"?? These do show up in my "B" Vehicle photos (but not the tanks?)

Bill

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
From the 1CACR War Diary:
November 18, 1944
Stencils for marking vehicles have been made up locally, showing the Tactical Number 157 on a green and blue background, and another showing an orange Kangaroo in a black circle. The Tech, Adjt., Capt. Rook, had signs painted on a tank and a 'B' vehicle as examples for the remainder of the vehicles.

December 18, 1944
The Commanding officer, Lt. Col. Churchill approved the regimental design (Kangaroo) to be painted on all vehicles, Kangaroo in Orange (Holland's National Colour) within a black circle.

From looking at the weather reports in the Diaries (a lot of rain and cold, wet weather) and some notations regarding delays in maintenance and painting, I would surmise that not all the tanks and B vehicles got fully marked by the time they went into action in early January..........

hmmm .......

........ this sounds all very familiar ..... and I seem to remember coming to more or less the same conclusions regarding 'markings'...... I just can't remember where I've read this before .......

Cheers

[Bill Miller]

Mark, have started to talk in... circles?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Mark, have started to talk in... circles?

.... Me too! .... but me thinks its because my grand-daughter keeps singing "The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round".... over and over and over again ......

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Mark, have started to talk in... circles?

Bill, Mark,

Never mind, these are excellent circles to be in. Thanks!

Hanno