M38A1 CDN3 Mirrors

[chris vickery]

Looking to the experts regarding mirrors for my CDN3.
The 53 and 67 models used round mirrors according to the OEM manual, while the 1970 model appears to have rectangular ones.
Understandably, I’m sure maintenance used whatever was on hand to suit the purpose. Does anyone have definative proof that the rectangular ones were in fact issued with the CDN3? I’m in the market for such if someone has a pair laying around or know where I can get them.

Also, I have seen and heard that perhaps there was actually. rear view mirror for the windshield. Were these a thing / an afterthought or a non official modification? Never saw one on the many Canadian jeeps I’ve looked at over the years.

[rob love]

When I started as a mechanic in the cf, all the small round mirrors had been replaced with the rectangular mirrors. I only recall them coming in black finish for the metal. I think some were dominion auto, and I remember chryco mirrors as well. I remember that one particular brand only held the glass in with the rubber trim of the mirror. We would glue them in with contact cement, otherwise they didn't last one trip.
I think your query about the mirrors on the cdn 3 can be answered in 3 places. If someone has the cdn3 supplement for the parts manual, it would list a different part number. Ir if someone has the data summary for the cdn3, it would show what was in use in 1970. But my guess is it will be the same small mirrors as on the other fleets. Even the m151a2 came with the small mirrors in 1974.
Ill have a look in my library and see if I can find a definitive answer.

[chris vickery]

Rob, thanks. I must admit that I do have the parts book with the CDN3 supplement but I do find it to be a challenging read to decipher and comprehend it.
The Sup does have a vehicle profile picture that shows rectangular mirrors. I know sometimes that manufacturer literature doesn’t always carry over to production units sometimes, hence my question.
If anyone has pics of CDN3 in service with these mirrors I’d be curious to see them. Anything you might find is appreciated

[Ed Storey]

Perhaps this image from "7610-21-848-1570 Change 1 Repair Manual Truck, Utility, ¼ Ton, 4x4 M38A1 CDN3 - 1970" will help.

[rob love]

Well I guess one is never too old to learn something new. I think have the same photo as Ed, however mine is from 79610-21-848-1569 (operators manual supplement CDN3). It also shows the recangular mirrors on both sides of the Cdn3.

Unfortunately I don't have the CDN3 supplement for the parts manual. I had it in the past...no idea where than manual went.

WRT the CDN3 supplement pages for the parts manual Chris, those pages were located on the last 4 or 5 pages of the text in the parts manual. Have a look in there and see what it lists for the mirrors. It will most likely reflect a Jeep (65909) part number.

Those parts in that supplementwill be strictly for the CDN3, although in a some cases, we would retrofit some of those parts onto the CDN2 jeeps if it was an upgrade. The solid state turn signal flasher and harness was one we would commonly retrofit, although I think there was a mod instruction for that.

I suspect the only place you may find the original mirrors still on a CDN3 would be on one of the parade and ceremonial jeeps, as they were low mileage and not subject to the regular beating that any field jeep was subject to. The truck in Shilo had around 2300 original mileson it if I recall correctly.

[chris vickery]

Rob I did some digging and this is what I came up with. My parts manual includes the M38, M38A1 and CDN2 which was hand written on the cover. Think this is a Brian A creation.
There was an odd number listed in there with an asterix, 6295*.
In the rear numerical index there is no listing including the asterix which I could find although there is. 6295 number which crosses to 2540-00-054-7202.
I punched that into Google and got listings for both round and square mirrors.
What is interesting is that it directed me toward M37 mirrors.
Is it possible that the CDN3 and Dodge M series trucks shared the same mirror?
Appears to be a 5” x 7” application. Do you have a Dodge reference parts manual?
It may be possible that the M151 mutt series may share the same NSN. I noticed that they used a combination of round and rectangular mirrors as well

[rob love]

The m135 deuce, the m37 three quad, and the early jeeps as well as the m151a2 all were originally issued with the round mirror. I think even the 5 ton did as well.
I seem to recall that the nsn on the boxes the mirrors came in was a canadian number, but it was a long time ago.
I just saw the modification instruction a few days ago detailing the relocation of the mirrors on the jeeps sometime in the early 80s. I will try and locate it again to see if it gives an nsn for the mirrors.
When I look up that nsn you listed i get it feeding back to 5 ton truck m54.

[chris vickery]

Been having quite a chat with Wayne H on this as well.
It seems that the rectangular mirrors were a replacement, possibly an upgrade to the OEM design.
Obviously, they are pictured in the service manual plate for the CDN3. For whatever reason, Jeep Toledo used these instead of the round ones.
Was this an official upgrade to the original design, that ended up getting carried over to replacements for already in service vehicles?
If this was the case, shouldn’t there be a CFTO on it?
From what I have found, Dominion Automotive, a defunct Toronto supplier sold these to the CF sometime between 1979 and when the Jeeps went out of service mid 80’s. Dominion went bankrupt in 2014.
This leads me back to Jeep Toledo. It’s obvious then that they weren’t sourcing mirrors from Dominion in 1970-71 to complete the contract, since they weren’t even in business at that time.
I’m still curious to know if there was a NSN or if Toledo simply used a commercially available mirror of the day. This would make sense to me, they were building CJ-5s during those years and would have had them in their supply chain already. Willing to bet the CJ-5 mirror was the OEM used on CDN3s….

[rob love]

I had a look at some sales literature, and the cj5 for the year does look similar in design but perhaps a little different dimension.

There does not have to be a modification or installation instruction when a supply item is changed. Sometimes the new stock could be put under the original nsn if the item does not have a substantive difference, but more often the nsn microfiber will have something along the line of wse use 2530-xx-xxxx-xxxx .
Sometimes there could be a message, other times it could just be an advice notification from supply as to a stock number change. You would then annotate your parts manual or your fast moving parts book.

Edited to add another sales brochure of a CJ5 mirror. Same photo as shown as a later post but thought it might be good to have them all together for comparison

[David Dunlop]

This has been an interesting read.

I do not know if it relates to the entire acquisition of CDN3's by the Canadian Army or perhaps the last few that were purchased but here in Winnipeg in the late 1970's, some of the 'gossip' about them was with regards to them being nothing more than off the line CJ5's with a few add on military bits to make them baseline acceptable for military use.

Towards the end of all this gossip, came comments to the effect civilian vehicles had simply been repainted off the line with a military green overcoat, which I thought was quite odd. Then, a couple of friends of mine and I were advised one such vehicle was in civilian hands and parked at a corner lot of Jubilee Avenue just east of the BDI Drive Inn so we went to find it. Sure enough, we found it sitting on a driveway with a correct military surplus paint job for the time but with sections of the paint peeling away along the rear panels and front right fender area revealing a very minty Sapphire Blue Metallic paint. A few months later we heard of another such vehicle in the south St. Vital area and tracked it down. It was definitely not the same vehicle because the paint was peeling in different areas but again, the same Sapphire Blue civilian paint was revealed underneath the military colour.


David

[chris vickery]

David, are you sure we are talking M38A1? I know that every CDN3 I’ve ever run across is in fact mil-spec, not civilian.
Perhaps you may be thinking of the CJ-7s that were used as a stop gap, as they definately were civilian with “military upgrades”

[rob love]

Agree, David is thinking of the cj7, which was basically off the shelf with some minor additions and coming in olive green. They were purchased in 82, 83 and 85.

I worked on every m38a1 that was in Winnipeg militia, flin flon and kenora during the early 80s. There was nothing non-conforming about any of them.

[rob love]

So I dug into my manuals a little deeper, and also pulled out the old microfiche.

The NSN 2540-00-054-7202 is the part number for the 5" round mirror, and is listed in several of the manuals including M38, M38A1, M37, and m135 deuce. So there is commonality there. I tried tolook that up on my microfiche, but unfortunately I am missing that page.

When I looked in my m37 manual, that number was annotated by pen with 2540-21-116-1582. I was able to look that number up on my microfiche and it turned into GM part number 3696632. Looking that up on the internet leads me to another 5" round mirror.

The M151A2 used a 5.5" round mirror for both sides and the center mirror. However, it has an offset post. NSN for that is 2540-00-884-1205.

I then tried to look on the EIS for some of these trucks. Starting in the late 70s, the mirrors and batteries were often included on the drivers EIS. However,I don't have the EIS for the CDN3, and the older scales do not list the mirrors. Must have been something they added in the 70s to reduce loss or theft.

So all this to say I have not solved the mystery about the actual part number for the CDN3.

One of the NSCMs listed in the Cdn Jeep manual for the mirror is 35272. That code equates to Barrincorp Industries Ltd out of Missauga, who did in fact manufacture mirrors. But that was again for the 5" mirror. Jeep may well have bought from them in the 70s, but it's a wildcard.

I did look at further google listings for 1970 CJ5 sales brochures, and think I have run accross a mirror that looks like the CDN3 mirror. It is possible that the screenshot of the mirror I showed earlier may have been airbrushed by the factory artists for some reason.