23rd Field Reg. RCA, Sexton Question

[kevinT]

Or should I say a couple of questions.

Were 23rd Field equipped with Sextons from D-Day on or did they have the M7 Priest initially?
Would the troop markings for "A" troop, for example, have been AA, AB, AC, AD and "B" troop BA, BB....

Were the Ram OP's replaced by Sherman OP's or did it depend on what ever was available?

Thank you for any information.

Cheers
Kevin

[John McGillivray]

23rd Field (SP) Regt. never used M7’s. They started their training with Sextons while still in Canada, having received their first Sextons in April 1943.

While Field Regiments with towed guns used Tac signs with “AA” “AB” etc; SP Regiments often used “A1” A2” …”B1” “B2” etc. So you will have to find pictures of 23rd Fd guns to see how they were marked.

Ram OP’s were replaced by Sherman OP’s as the war progressed. Below is a photo of a Sherman OP belonging to 15th Fd Regt at wars end.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by kevinT
Were 23rd Field equipped with Sextons from D-Day on or did they have the M7 Priest initially?

Hi Kevin;

23rd Fd Regt (SP), RCA did not land on D-Day, they arrived in Normandy on 26 July 1944.

Cheers

[Doug Knight]

23rd Field were the only "pure" Canadian Sexton Regiment since they never used any other SP after they converted from a towed regiment. 19th Field used the M7 for the D-Day landings and 8th Field used the M7 in Italy before coming to NWE.

[kevinT]

John,
I have been searching British Pathe trying find photos of Sextons of 23rd Field. Sadly with little luck. But I think I have found one from 13th Field Regiment. There are a couple of frames of a Sexton called "Carrubba" S233951 crossing a swing or cantilever bridge.
The number 43 ( 13th Field? ) is clearly seen with CC (No.3 gun C troop ? ) above it.
The British Pathe film number is 2133.05 and the Sexton is at frame no. 374. There are also a couple of frames of a Crusader AA at 462, 463 and 464. The film is dated as a possible 12-10-44

Mark,
Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant to say were they equipped with Sextons when they landed. I just used D-Day as a date.

Doug,
Thanks for confirming 23rd Fields use of Sextons.

Thank you all for the replies.

Cheers
Kevin

[John McGillivray]

Originally posted by kevinT
John,
I have been searching British Pathe trying find photos of Sextons of 23rd Field. Sadly with little luck. But I think I have found one from 13th Field Regiment. There are a couple of frames of a Sexton called "Carrubba" S233951 crossing a swing or cantilever bridge.
The number 43 ( 13th Field? ) is clearly seen with CC (No.3 gun C troop ? ) above it.

I take it that you are referring to the 13th Fd Regt Royal Horse Artillery, which was the SP Regt of the British 11th Armoured division; and not the 13th Fd Regt RCA which was part of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division. If so then the AoS number should be 76 and not 43. The AoS number of 13th Fd RCA was 43, however, they did not use Sextons. They landed on D-Day with M7’s and converted back to towed 25pdrs at the end of July, 1944.

[kevinT]

Hello John,

The British Pathe film 2133.05 (Invasion Scenes Europe) Possibly dated 12-10-44
The Sexton definately has 43 on r/b. If I knew how to post a picture I would. Assuming you are allowed to post British Pathe film stills?
Unless there were other Sexton equipped units in the area?

Cheers
Kevin

[Barry Churcher]

Hi Kevin
To try and help you out here I went right to the source. I hope this info answers some of your queries.
Cheers,
Barry

Gunner C:
The 23rd arrived in the UK in July 1943. ( I erred, we did receive the Sextons in Sussex NB in April 1943.) As an O.P assistant, we always had a Sherman minus the gun ( to make room in the turret for an artillery plotting board.) for our O P vehicle. Our guns were always mounted on the Ram chassis ( a good old reliable Canadian tank ). I DO NOT remember us converting to the Sherman for an O.P. vehicle.
We embarked for Normandie from the Tilberry docks in old London town on 21 July 1944. After several days at anchor in the Thames estuary the convoy slipped down to the open sea on the evening of 24 July. On 26 July we disembarked at Arromanches in Normandie and our concentration point was near Banville, several miles inland.
To explain the markings on our SP's.
Firstly: There were 3 batteries in our Regiment.
31st, 36th, and the 83rd. (A.K.A.) Peter, Queen and Roger.
The two troops in Peter Battery were Able ( A ),Baker( B )
Two Troops in Queen Battery were Charlie ( C ) Dog ( D - my battery)
Two Troops in Roger Battery: Easy ( E ) and Fox ( F )
Each troop had 4 guns, and were named as ;
in Able troop AA ( or A 1) AB ( or A2) AC (or A3 ) and AD(or A4)
and in Baker troop BA (or B1 ) etc,
so this goes for the two troops in Queen Battery (i.e.) Charlie troop (i.e.) C A ( C1 ) CB ( C2 ) etc
and in Dog Troop DA ( D1 ) etc.
Easy Troop EA ( E 1 ) etc.
Fox Troop FA ( F1) etc
I hope this explains all, please peruse and call me if you require any more info.
UBIQUE
Gunner D

[Barry Churcher]

Kevin, is this what you are looking for?
Barry

[John McGillivray]

Originally posted by kevinT
Hello John,

The British Pathe film 2133.05 (Invasion Scenes Europe) Possibly dated 12-10-44
The Sexton definately has 43 on r/b. If I knew how to post a picture I would. Assuming you are allowed to post British Pathe film stills?
Unless there were other Sexton equipped units in the area?

Cheers
Kevin

Below is a detail from a larger photo showing a Sexton from the British 11th Armoured Division with the AoS number 76. The two Field Artillery Regiments of the 11th AD are the 13th RHA and the 151st RA. On all the lists that I’ve seen the 13th is the first field regimented listed, pointing towards it being the towed regiment and not the SP regiment.

On the photos of the Sexton with the number 43, was there a white bar under the number? If so then it would be an Army Field Regiment. The British 86th Army Field Regiment had Sextons and landed on D-Day in support of the British 50th Division, but I don’t know its AoS number.

[kevinT]

Thanks both for the information clarifying 23rd Field's markings.
Great info Barry.
Photo is ideal.

John,
I have had a look at the BP photo again and it does not look as though there is a bar below. So I don't know?
"British Military Markings 1939-1945" does not give an AoS for 86th Field. But the RA site (ra39-45) has a marked Sexton with 1147 with bar below as an example.

Can either confirm names on the photos posted?

Thanks again both for your help.

Cheers
Kevin

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi John;

Originally posted by John McGillivray
Below is a detail from a larger photo showing a Sexton from the British 11th Armoured Division with the AoS number 76. The two Field Artillery Regiments of the 11th AD are the 13th RHA and the 151st RA.

In the British 11th Armd Div the AoS Serials for the two Fd Regts were:

'74' - 151st Field Regiment (Ayrshire Yeomanry)(TA), RA - towed 25pdrs
'76' - 13th Regiment (Honourable Artillery Company), RHA - Sextons

Originally posted by John McGillivray
On all the lists that I’ve seen the 13th is the first field regimented listed, pointing towards it being the towed regiment and not the SP regiment.

Something to keep in mind is that most of these lists are in numeric order which in most cases are not in the order of the assigned AoS Serials for the Division (in this case) in question.

Originally posted by John McGillivray
On the photos of the Sexton with the number 43, was there a white bar under the number? If so then it would be an Army Field Regiment. The British 86th Army Field Regiment had Sextons and landed on D-Day in support of the British 50th Division, but I don’t know its AoS number.

The AoS Serial for the 86th Army Field Regiment (SP), RA was '1147', with white bar below and the Formation Sign used was that of the British Second Army.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Photo No.: B 10244
Photographer: Laing (Sgt) No 5 Army Film & Photographic Unit
Collection Title: WAR OFFICE SECOND WORLD WAR OFFICIAL COLLECTION
Collection No.: 4700-29
Description: THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH-WEST EUROPE 1944-45
11th Armoured Division vehicles during the advance in Holland, 22 September 1944. On the right is a Sexton self-propelled gun of 13th (HAC) Regiment Royal Horse Artillery.



Photo No.: B 10363
Photographer: Laing (Sgt)
No 5 Army Film & Photographic Unit
Collection Title: WAR OFFICE SECOND WORLD WAR OFFICIAL COLLECTION
Collection No.: 4700-29
Description: THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH-WEST EUROPE 1944-45
Sexton 25-pdr self-propelled guns of 11th Armoured Division pass through Deurne during the advance towards Gemert, 26 September 1944.

Cheers

Mark

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by kevinT
Hello John,

The British Pathe film 2133.05 (Invasion Scenes Europe) Possibly dated 12-10-44
The Sexton definately has 43 on r/b.

Kevin's British Pathe photo:

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by kevinT
The British Pathe film 2133.05 (Invasion Scenes Europe) Possibly dated 12-10-44 The Sexton definately has 43 on r/b.

Kevin/John;

This photo



could be of a Sexton belonging to the 90th Field Regiment, RA of the 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division, who were Sexton equipped and their AoS Serial while serving with the 50th was '43'. They left 50 Div in Nov 1944, becoming Second Army Troops.

Cheers

[kevinT]

Firstly Mark,
Thanks for posting the photo.
According to the RA site 90th Field is listed, showing names and markings as at November 1944. AoS 1178 with bar below.
The Sexton names follow the troop letter. Only one "Challenger", is listed under C Troop.
Perhaps "Carrubba" is a 90th Field Sexton.
Anyone have any idea what "Carrubba" stands for?

Cheers
Kevin

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by kevinT
Firstly Mark,
Thanks for posting the photo.
According to the RA site 90th Field is listed, showing names and markings as at November 1944. AoS 1178 with bar below.
The Sexton names follow the troop letter. Only one "Challenger", is listed under C Troop.
Perhaps "Carrubba" is a 90th Field Sexton.
Anyone have any idea what "Carrubba" stands for?

Cheers
Kevin

Hi Kevin;

I received your other two photos and after seeing the last one (bridge and road sign post, which is the same location as the Sexton photo) I'm pretty sure that the first photo is that of a Sexton of 90th Field Regt while they were still part of the 50th Div Arty, more to follow on this later.

90th Field Regt were a TA unit from London, so maybe the name "Carrubba" has something to do with that? The names "Challenger" and "Carrubba" remind me of race horses for some reason?

Cheers

[kevinT]

Not a horse.
I have just checked all the winners for St Leger 1776 - 1944
Oaks 1779 - 1944, Derby 1780 - 1944, 2000 guineas 1809 - 1944
1000 Guineas 1814 - 1944 and the Grand National 1837 - 1944.
Not a Carrubba in sight.

Cheers
Kevin

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by kevinT
Not a horse.
I have just checked all the winners for St Leger 1776 - 1944
Oaks 1779 - 1944, Derby 1780 - 1944, 2000 guineas 1809 - 1944
1000 Guineas 1814 - 1944 and the Grand National 1837 - 1944.
Not a Carrubba in sight.

Cheers
Kevin

.... I guess we can rule out space shuttles then .......

I'll have a look through my library/sources and see what I can find regarding the naming of the 90th's vehicles.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

If you do a google search of Carrubba you will find that it is a name with its origins in Sicily. 90th Field Regt along with 50th Division were part of XIII Corps in Sicily in 1943.

When did the 90th Fd Regt get Sextons? My understanding was that they landed on D-Day with M7’s and would have converted over to towed 25pdrs, which were the standard field gun of Artillery Regiments in Infantry Divisions.

[kevinT]

Hello John,

Thanks for the into on 90th Field.
I have, hopefully, attached a couple of links to the RA website.
It does not list M7's or conversion to towed 25 pdrs as part of it's equipment although the page is obviously incomplete.
Any thoughts?

http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co...ld/page90.html
http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co...d/page212.html
http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co...d/page213.html

I hope this has worked.

Cheers
Kevin

[John McGillivray]

That is interesting. The same site shows the other two field regiments of 50th Division, 74th and 124th as having M7’s in June 1944 while the 90th had Sextons. So there were in fact two regiments of Sextons landed in Normandy on D-Day, the 90th and the 86th.

Update
The pages below shows that the 147th Field Regiment also landed on Gold Beach on June 6th. The site states that it was an SP unit but dose not indicate the type of guns.

http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co...uro/page3.html

http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co...d/page147.html

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
The pages below shows that the 147th Field Regiment also landed on Gold Beach on June 6th. The site states that it was an SP unit but dose not indicate the type of guns.

Hi John;

From what I have, the 147 Fd Regt (2nd Army Troops) were equipped with Sextons also.

Also, you asked in an earlier post:

Originally posted by John McGillivray
When did the 90th Fd Regt get Sextons? My understanding was that they landed on D-Day with M7’s and would have converted over to towed 25pdrs, which were the standard field gun of Artillery Regiments in Infantry Divisions.

from what I've been able to dig up they were equipped with Sextons upon their return to the UK in preparation for the Normandy landings.

So for the assault over Gold Beach, the 69th Inf Bde (King) were supported by the guns of 86th Fd Regt and the 231st Inf Bde (Jig) were supported by the guns of both the 90th and 147th Fd Regts.

Cheers

[kevinT]

Hello John,

From the few names and numbers I have 147th were equipped with Sextons on D-Day.
"Ardleigh" S233813 A trp 431st Battery
"Brentwood" S233752 B trp 431st Battery
"Bramley" B trp 431st Battery Sherman OP
"Debden" D trp 413th Battery
"Dobbs Weir" D trp 413th Battery Sherman OP
"Exterminator" E trp 431st Battery
"Falaise" F trp 511th Battery
"Fontenay" F trp 511th Battery

Mark,
Can you add anything further to the above? Any names or numbers would be most useful.

Cheers
Kevin

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by kevinT
From the few names and numbers I have 147th were equipped with Sextons on D-Day.
"Ardleigh" S233813 A trp 431st Battery
"Brentwood" S233752 B trp 431st Battery
"Bramley" B trp 431st Battery Sherman OP
"Debden" D trp 413th Battery
"Dobbs Weir" D trp 413th Battery Sherman OP
"Exterminator" E trp 431st Battery
"Falaise" F trp 511th Battery
"Fontenay" F trp 511th Battery

Mark,
Can you add anything further to the above? Any names or numbers would be most useful.

Hi Kevin;

The only thing I can add to this at the moment is that the vehicle names used by the 147th were place names in Essex, but later after starting active operations, place names of where the Regiment had seen action were also used. I've managed to find two photos of Sextons of the 147th. The top one is of "Ardleigh", census number S233813. Although the name "Ardleigh" is not showing, the AoS serial of 1177 (without the 'Army' bar) is, along with the Fmn Sign of the 50th Inf Div. This photo was taken on either D-Day or D+1. The bottom photo is of "Brentwood", census number S233752, no date given, but taken in NWE.

Cheers

[kevinT]

Hello Mark,

Thanks for the photos of "Ardleigh" and "Brentwood".

Re one of your previous quotes.

....I guess we can rule out space shuttles then......

Not yet! Have a look at these. All we need now is to find Saturn V.
Anybody seen it?

http://wwiireenacting.co.uk/forum/vi...t=5012&start=0

Cheers
Kevin