Bedford QL mystery

David_Hayward (RIP) · #1 02-02-07, 15:45

May I ask what the opinion is about this QL Troop Carrier from the batch L 559110 - 562075 Contract V.4914, Lorry 3 ton Troop Carrying and W/T and V.4924 3 ton Troop Carrying. Note the photo is dated November '44 and stamped January '45. It has "F251" on the cab on the left side and "LOT 521" as well as "F 251" on the driver's side and "F 260" on the body! It's Census Number L 560479. I have never seen an "F" serial before. I am for once stumped.

So, is it a rebuild or rebody job? Note the "BEDFORD TROOP X CARRIER" writing on the right side. Does that suggest a late war rebuild? The lorry has black-painted wheels, and Mickey Mouse Ears camo or similar.

Latest suggestion is that these were chassis-cabs sent to this company for bodying as Troop Carriers or W/T lorries and then they were shipped out to N Africa and Europe from Liverpool with the bodies. Can that explain the "F" numbers and "Lot" as shipping references?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #2 02-02-07, 15:46

Here's the other side

Richard Farrant · #3 02-02-07, 21:55

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
May I ask what the opinion is about this QL Troop Carrier from the batch L 559110 - 562075 Contract V.4914, Lorry 3 ton Troop Carrying and W/T and V.4924 3 ton Troop Carrying. Note the photo is dated November '44 and stamped January '45. It has "F251" on the cab on the left side and "LOT 521" as well as "F 251" on the driver's side and "F 260" on the body! It's Census Number L 560479. I have never seen an "F" serial before. I am for once stumped.

So, is it a rebuild or rebody job?

David,

This census no. L 560479, is a very early one for a QL. The bodies for Troopers were built as far as I am aware, by Austin Motor Co. I have seen these "F" numbers on vehicles in photos like this before, but do not think them to be serials or census as such. The puzzling thing is the date on the photo, because by that time, regulations on painting would have had the lorry in olive drab overall and not "Mickey Mouse". Rebuilt vehicles usually were renumbered in to a group of Census numbers allocated as such. ( I know of a Bedford MW like this where we know the original Census no. and the later one after rebuild comes up on the Key Card when you enter in the post war census number).

David_Hayward (RIP) · #4 02-02-07, 22:29

Richard the Contract number is V.4914, so much later than the Census Number might suggest: V.3949 was the 1941? batch and the first series production.

I am pondering whether this was representative of lorries that were to be refurbished perhaps, but more likely de-bodied and shipped to Europe or even the Far East? I have been pondering what "LOT 521" is, and the fact that the cab and body have different "F" numbers. I conjected that they might be shipping numbers for manifest or census purposes. I.e. they dismantled the bodies from the chassis-cabs then shipped them out.

I am stumped, truly stumped on this one!

I have pored over hi-res blow-ups of the two photos. On the left side there are padlocks in place on boxes. The wheels look as though they have been painted black and the tyres look good. There appears to be no spare wheel which presumably would be at the rear on this body? Also no sling flanges on the hubs. In the cab on the back there is some form of printed notice.

Richard Farrant · #5 02-02-07, 23:52

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Richard the Contract number is V.4914, so much later than the Census Number might suggest: V.3949 was the 1941? batch and the first series production.

I have pored over hi-res blow-ups of the two photos. On the left side there are padlocks in place on boxes. The wheels look as though they have been painted black and the tyres look good. There appears to be no spare wheel which presumably would be at the rear on this body? Also no sling flanges on the hubs. In the cab on the back there is some form of printed notice.

David,

Take a look at the Chilwell census number list and you will find that although contract V3949 is for the first batch, their numbers start L550001. From my rough estimations using the census list, this QL is of chassis no. 9688 give or take a few. Production of QL for 1941 was 7,229 and end of play for 1942 was 18,161, so this puts the truck at around early 1942. (figures from Bart's Bedford book).

Sling plates on hubs were not fitted till around late 43 from chassis no. 26372. Regarding no spare wheel, I have a photo of a QLD Cargo as left the factory, with a spare wheel rim less tyre, in fact not the first photo of this sort of thing. My guess the factory was short of tyres and did not want to disrupt production. This Trooper may have been in the same situation, rim on its own would not be secure in the cradle. As for the notice in the cab, from what can be seen on here, it looks like the sliding window in the back of the cab is open, showing the tilt.

Incidentally, there is no hip ring, these were fitted from 29117 on, which is the end of 1943.

While checking the census list I noticed that the two pre-production QLD cargos, known as QL-2 and QL-3 (QL-1 kept by Vauxhalls), were issued much later census numbers, L4182772-73, although the contact number was earlier, V3804.

This has probably not helped you get any further!

David_Hayward (RIP) · #6 03-02-07, 10:52

Richard, thanks mate! I have a photo of # 1, which ran around on Bedfordshire trade plates.

I am going to have to check the Bovington record card for Contract V.4914 and 4924. It does seem odd that they have low Census Numbers and a high, latish war. contract.

From Vauxhall records:

YEAR CHASSIS NOS. ENGINE NUMBERS
1940 QL1001-1002 ?
1941 QL&QLR 1003-4795.....QL&QLR 2001-(6214)
1942 QL&QLR 4796-14555...QL&QLR(6215)-16403
1943 QL&QLR 14556-26998 QL&QLR 16404-32692
1944 QL&QLR 26999-39051 QL&QLR 32693-45892
1945 QL&QLR 39052-53247 QL&QLR 45830-61648

Of course we have already discussed in the past the "fiddle" of the photo of L 553227, from that first batch you mentioned with the early rad grille, supposedly leaving Luton as the "200000th Wartime Bedford"!

I just can't see why this lorry was in Liverpool unless it was dismantling and shipment out? Did they use Troopers in the Far East campaign?

Thanks for all the assistance with this conundrum.

Richard Farrant · #7 03-02-07, 11:13

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
From Vauxhall records:

YEAR CHASSIS NOS.

1943 QL&QLR 14556-26998

David,

The production figures I quoted from Bart's book seem to be incorrect. The figures you quote for 1943, tie in with the info I recieved from Vauxhall Motors in 1987 when researching my own QL.

I assume when you mentioned Liverpool, then this photo is from Pearsons?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #8 03-02-07, 11:32

Yep...they will be in the book. I think!

The Vauxhall figures were found by the PSV Circle in an old tin in the Leyland Museum some years ago!

David_Hayward (RIP) · #9 05-02-07, 15:50

Mr Feltcher says:

V.4914 is dated 16-12-41 and is marked Lorry 3 ton 4x4 Troop Carrying & Wireless “QL”; the total is altered twice and ends at 1461 although the numbers given for each type are as follows; Troop Carriers (Austin) 1370. W/T (Normands) 50, W/T (unreadable but looks like Mar*** Eg) 40.

WD numbers are within the ranges L559110 – L560479 [so this lorry is the last Trooper QLT one, with Austin body, under that contract] and L561980 – L562075 [W/T QLRs]

Card V4924 is a bit more straightforward. It is dated 18-12-41 for 1500 Lorry 3 ton 4x4 QL fitted with troop carrying body and the body contract is noted as being with Austin Motors again. WD numbers from L560480 to L561979.

All of which suggests to me that these are new builds and not conversions. Some time ago I read, although for the life of me I cannot remember where, that the 30 seat body was required so that an exact number of trucks could be used to ‘lift’ an infantry formation, say a Battalion complete and in order. I think this all has to do with changes in the structure of the armoured division and in particular the lorried infantry brigades that worked with them."

All I can think of is that, with its black-painted wheels and M Mouse Ears camo that this is a '42 Model lorry that is about to be shipped off....to the Far East? The tyres look in good nick, there are padlocks extant on the boxes and the front looks aok. I cannot think of any other reason, given the accuracy of the photo dates.

Mike Starmer · #10 08-02-07, 21:19

I have found all of this discusion about that QL most interesting. About the paint finish, it is painted entirely according to the recommendations in Camouflage Chart No. 15 of May 1943. Basic colour SCC 2 brown with SCC 14 black disrupter. As for destination, Italy could be the place as this scheme was acceptable there. Thanks you for the picture and information.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #11 08-02-07, 21:51

Would it be Destination Italia in November 1944? I have posted a better shot of the front of the lorry in the first posting. I have to say that on close examination at high-res the vehicle looks complete, with newish tyres, padlocks on boxes, good paint, repainted wheels, and other items that you would expect to have gone missing or be worn/damaged.