Thomas Donaldson

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir 2nd
... when I'm more awake and can think.

By then you'll be too old to post...

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
By then you'll be too old to post...

Cheeky boy

Originally posted by PPS
Anthea,

Just a question!

You do not seem to say anywhere (unless I have missed it) if he returned to Canada or stayed in the UK.

Have you any idea which it is?

Paul.

Good point Paul. I've just been assuming that Thomas came back to Canada to live after the war (based on the posts and asking questions in Canadian site)

I need a timeframe (dates) of when he was in Canada so I know what years he was here, therefore what years to seach within for Canada side info.

[antheakn]

Hi

yes we presume he returned to Canada as he was discharged in 1945 and returned to his family who was in canada

Originally posted by antheakn
Hi

yes we presume he returned to Canada as he was discharged in 1945 and returned to his family who was in canada

Thanks Anthea. Now we can start exploring some avenues. I'd do what I can on my end as I have nothing but free time and home all the time, computer on. I'm limited in what I can find out, but will try. Kingston and that old address a good place to start ... as would be for you to try the Legion magazine site and others. Legion and members are great for helping people about their people who served.

Well, here's hoping next time I post that I'll have something tangible for you.

Karmen

[antheakn]

back in 2002 i emailed the legion well i think it was the legion mag and they said that they couldnt help becaue they had to protect people and it could cause families a lot of heartache, thats when i drew a blank. Then just recently I have endeavoured to try again. Fingers crossed someone can help me or someone may no of him

[antheakn]

thanks for all you help up to now it is much appreciated

Originally posted by antheakn
back in 2002 i emailed the legion well i think it was the legion mag and they said that they couldnt help becaue they had to protect people and it could cause families a lot of heartache, thats when i drew a blank. Then just recently I have endeavoured to try again. Fingers crossed someone can help me or someone may no of him

There are ways to go exploring these awkward things in ways that get you some information (which I see as a birth right to know your bloodlines and family history that belongs to you publically and privately) and protect others from upsets as well as their rights. Much info is public and public record. This is your Grandfather ... a very close and solid blood relationship and he was actually married to your Nan.

I have similar "icky" things regards my Dad's side of my family. The "family" has intimidated some of my Dad's siblings and others into no contact or else we'll be all upset with you and treat you badly for it (and they did treat them badly and I felt like hell for it) ... this when my Dad's siblings, a cousin, and even my own sibling/s (some) wanted contact. They wanted contact and were in contact and great towards me "You're Joe's kid" but walked on eggshells should the rest of the family find out. I get enraged and sad to think how my dads siblings especially have been and are being treated. Still, in the end, I wasn't raised part of my dads clan, they were and are close. Can't judge too harshly I suppose. They have to deal with each other and have full histories of family life together behind them. I do understand this.

Strange and upsetting world to think how petty and intimidating some can be to those who laid their lives on the line for their freedoms and things ... my Dad had a relationship with me til his death, on the sly from his "other" family

Oh the tangled webs we weave, huh?

Anyways ... I will helps as I can

And yes, private messages are a great way to communicate more private discussion and disclosures and exchanges of info ...

Anthea, in case you or your Dad want to check here for possible death records if Grandpa is passed on by now, which is a very high possibility considering if he was 35 back then and therefore born around 1910-ish:

Death Registrations after 1936 are still held by the Office of the Registrar General.
Contact:

Office of the Registrar General
189 Red River Road
P.O. Box 4600
Thunder Bay, Ontario
Canada P7B 6L8

Tel: 416-325-8305
1-800-461-2156 (toll-free in Ontario

[antheakn]

will it be as easy as that though if I do not have his birth date. Or could I request it for birthdates of all of the years 1907/1908/1909.

Thanks for the info

[PPS]

Did Thomas have a middle name by any chance?

What was his father's name?

It could make him easier to trace.

Paul.

Ouch. That's a tough one without a birthdate. Too bad it isn't listed on the marriage certificate you have. It will be listed all through his service records probably. And your Dad has no birth registration or anything like that naming his Dad and listing his birth date etc? (I don't know about there, but here in Canada, a person can order a copy of the original birth registration with all sorts of info that's originally submitted to Vital Statistics. You would not get much info on a birth certificate which is basically a "carry with you ID card" but it does show birthdate ) The registration record is all the info that Mom and maybe dad filled out when baby was born and you must SPECIFICALLY REQUEST a copy of the official birth registration form when ordering from the Ontario Vital Statistics place!!!

You are extremely fortunate to have Thomas's service record number which guarantees the number and man are each other, so you have the right man as far as service records go if you order them and can get them from the National Archives. Proof of death is needed.

Of course if Thomas is still living at around age 98 now, no one can get his records without his signed consent. Not even any immediate family of his here

Browse through the Archives blurbs to learn their process and rules (see link below thats for the Archives site. Important to read through. I'll quote this part for you though:

Access Restrictions

1) Access to personal information relating to an individual who is still living requires that person's signed consent.

2) If the individual has been deceased for less than 20 years, limited information may be released to immediate family. Proof of death and relationship must be provided.

3) There are no restrictions on access to information relating to an individual who has been deceased for more than 20 years. Proof of death is required.

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/g...909.007-e.html

Hard to find proof of death and that IS needed -obituary giving name/dates is acceptable to archives folks- see that website where it talks about "acceptable proof" for the archives.

Your DAD obviously falls under the category of immediate family as Thomas's son ... can this be proven through dads birth records or anything else official? ... anything showing the father-son relationship to this soldier and the marriage certificate helps too, I'm sure ALSO any correspondence between your mom and dad or mom and the army, if your dad has any of those old papers, just MIGHT have some info like his birthdate in there somewhere.

Any records your Dad has that has names, dates, places etc especially those linking your dad and grandfather as dad and son, can only help, and looks necessary to get records if his Dad passed away earlier than 20 years ago.

Even after 20 years when ANYONE related or not can order files they have to provide proof of death somehow that satisfies the archives people.

Is your Dad online and following this conversation and your search progress too?

Tired out here, half asleep Back next time,

Karmen

[antheakn]

hi

no my dad doesnt have a computer but I am keeping him posted.

Originally posted by antheakn
hi

no my dad doesnt have a computer but I am keeping him posted.

Good to know. Inform him of all I've/we've mentioned in here and maybe he has some papers and such tucked away somewhere or a sibling does, that he and/or you can start rooting through.

Seems like finding a birthdate very important as a first step almost ...

I've found no obituary, else his birthdate might have been mentioned as well, as they usually are in obituaries.

I'll do what I can. So you know, I DO draw the line at approaching any living relatives this side of the world fro you and your dad. Anything I can find "public record" if I find out anything, I'll pass on to you and your Dad.

Oh ... you're welcome

Here is something kinda fun ... a site called "Automated Geneology" that has transcribed and put online a searchable database of some census years 1901/1906 some parts/1911 and some farther back ... I remembered it and went in to search the last one done for public access. An amazing project they've done in this transcribing/uploading for free access to the general public

I searched 1911 for Kingston Ontario ... a list of about 22 Donaldson's came up, but no Thomas. Maybe he wasn't born yet? What exact YEAR was it that your grandparents married (when Grandpa listed age 35 at marriage) ? I don't recall you mentioning the year. Knowing would narrow the year/timeframe.

http://automatedgenealogy.com/census...Id=86&geosort=

Anyways, a good and fun site if you're into tracking backwards for geneology searches once you get some names going. Geneology is ADDICTIVE!

Originally posted by PPS
Karmen,

The English marriage certificate would only give his age at marriage, place of residence at time of marriage, and occupation unfortunately. It could also show his father's name and occupation

Paul.

If it shows his FATHERS name ... then the father would be listed in the automated geneology site in 1911 and 1901, along with wife and kids names and ages, or at least whoever shared a home with him ... the geneology site often shows actual birthdates as well as relationship to head of house!

[antheakn]

hi

they were married on 10 april 1943

[servicepub (RIP)]

Anthea,
The Regimental Number you provided (C40252) was issued by the Princess of Wales Own Regiment (Canadian Active Servce Force). The PWOR are based in Kingston, Ontario;
The Princess of Wales’ Own Regimental Association
Mailing Address: The Armoury
100 Montreal Street , Kingston ON, K7K 3E8
Telephone:1-613-541-5010 ext 5885
Fax:1-613-542-3893
They MAY have some information although it is possible that your grandfather was re-mustered to the Service Corps due to his age.

[PPS]

Anthea,

I am a little confused here so please bear with me

Also on his birth cert it says occupation Lab Ass for cancer research although he was in the forces I guess this was his occupation on civi street.

Whose birth certificate do you mean exactly?

Whose Occupation was Lab Assistant?

[antheakn]

sorry on my nanas and thomas's marraige cert it says he was a lab ass for cancer research although he was in the army as well

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by servicepub
Anthea,
The Regimental Number you provided (C40252) was issued by the Princess of Wales Own Regiment (Canadian Active Servce Force).

The only part of the Princess of Wales Own Regiment (M.G.) that was called out and placed on active service in Canada for the purpose of (a) Manning Coastal and Anti-Aircraft Defences; and
(b) providing guards for vulnerable points, as part of the Canadian Active Service Force were the 'details C.A.S.F.' of the regiment that were authorized under Schedule "D" of General Order Number 135 of 1939, effective 1 September 1939, these being:

Serial 307 - The Princess of Wales Own Regiment (M.G.), C.A.S.F. (Details).

This same 'detail' of the regiment had been called out on service in August 1939, when with the threat of war approaching, under the authority of General Order Number 124 of 1939, the Minister of National Defence called out for the purposes of providing guards for Armouries and Military buildings units of the Non-Permanent Active Militia, effective 26th August, 1939, under which, in Military District No. 3, was called out:

The Princess of Wales Own Regiment (M.G.)(Details)

To give you an idea of the strength of these 'details', whether they had been autrhorized under G.O. 124/39, effective 26 Aug 39, or under G.O. 135/39, effective 1 Sep 39, the total overall strength authorized to be 'called out' within Military District No. 3 was not to exceed 208, spread between these 'details':

authorized 26 Aug 39:

The Midland Regiment (Northumberland and Durham)(Details)
The Governor General's Foot Guards (Details)
The Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders (Details)
Le Regiment de Hull (Details)
The Princess of Wale's Own Regiment (M.G.)(Details)

and with the formation of the Canadian Active Service Force, the above mentioned details were 'placed on active service' within Canada, as part of the C.A.S.F., within Military District No. 3 ...

authorized 1 Sep 39:

Serial 303 - The Midland Regiment (Northumberland and Durham), C.A.S.F. (Details)
Serial 304 - The Governor General's Foot Guards, C.A.S.F. (Details)
Serial 305 - The Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders, C.A.S.F. (Details)
Serial 306 - Le Regiment de Hull, C.A.S.F. (Details)
Serial 307 - The Princess of Wales Own Regiment (M.G.), C.A.S.F. (Details)
Serial 308 - 1st Corps Troops R.C.A.S.C., C.A.S.F. (Details)

This detail of the regiment Serial 307 - The Princess of Wales Own Regiment (M.G.), C.A.S.F. (Details) was disbanded effective 30 December 1940.

The regiment as a whole was not called out and placed on active service as an 'Active Unit' of the Canadian Army until May 1942, when: -

Serial 1081 - The Princess of Wales Own Regiment (M.G.)

was authorized under General Order Number 309 of 1942, effective 12 May 1942, and served only in Canada until disbanded in October 1943, first under command of Headquarters, Military District No. 4 (defence of the St. Lawrence), being based at Sherbrooke, Quebec and later under command of Atlantic Command (East Coast defences), being based at Camp Debert, Nova Scotia.

Originally posted by servicepub
... although it is possible that your grandfather was re-mustered to the Service Corps due to his age.

... with the formation of the Canadian Active Service Force in September 1939, the following units of the Royal Canadian Army Service Corps within Military District No. 3 were authorized under G.O. 135/39, effective 1 Sep 39:

Serial 109 - Headquarters of 1st Corps Troops, R.C.A.S.C., C.A.S.F. (Ottawa, Ontario)
Serial 110 - 1st Corps Troops Ammunition Company, R.C.A.S.C., C.A.S.F. (Ottawa, Ontario)
Serial 111 - 1st Corps Petrol Park, R.C.A.S.C., C.A.S.F. (Ottawa, Ontario)
Serial 112 - 1st Corps Troops Supply Column, R.C.A.S.C., C.A.S.F. (Ottawa, Ontario)

I guess so far, we can assume that he was probably a pre-war member of the Non-Permanent Active Militia - Princess of Wales Own Regiment (M.G.) and was 'called out on service' with the regimental 'detail' that was authorized on 26 Aug 39 and 'placed on active service' with the regimental 'detail C.A.S.F.', that was authorized on 1 Sep 39. Where he went from there ...

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Sorry, just found this thread and I am empathic about the circumstances. My aunt was enaged to a Canadian serviceman, and I think several others during the war! However, my late father-in-law made an American girl pregnant wheilst he was in the RAF in Canada, and she was on holiday from the States: Fred came back to England and refused all treaties from the girl's father to marry his daughter. I believe he had no choice as he had made my late mother-in-law pregnant so had to have a quickie wedding in '44! So my wife has a half-brother somewhere and presumably nieces and nephews as well as a myriad of Canadian cousins by her father's brother and his then wife who emigrated to Canada post-war.

I would suggest a trawl through birth records would be helpful..for Mr Donaldson and any children that he had in Canada. I wonder if copies are available on CD? In the UK companies can buy digital records of births, deaths and marriages which they then use for genalogical searches. After many years of undertaking this sort of work in England, I would automatically suggest trying to access the records that exist for Kingston..would they be provincial? Locally Southampton Council have all local records going back to 1835, plus they can I think provide a feed into national records that are now anyway online. I only have very limited knowledge of the Canadian system but when we had a case of a British woman who died in BC, a certificate was obtained locally.

I would also mention that records of Probates and Intestacies are very helpful. If the assumption that somebody has died recently is made, then checking the alphabetical listings by year back can reap benefits. The details of any grants to the Estate will throw up next of kin, and of course last addresses. This worked for me trying to trace the family of a British GM man that played a major role during the war. He was also a member of the SOE. I was amazed that he had lived to over 90, and his daughter was still living at the address in the Estate papers.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As a matter of interest I have details of MD HQs from 1938:

MD No. 1: Elizabeth Street, London, Ontario
MD No. 2: 174 Spadina Avenue, Toronto, Ontario
MD No. 3: District Headquarters, Kingston, Ontario.
MD No. 4: 3 Hillside Avenue, Westmount, P. Quebec.
MD No. 5: Post Office Building, Fort Street, Quebec, P. Quebec.
MD No. 6: Gunwharf, Halifax, Nova Scotia.
MD No. 10: Fort Osborne Barracks, Winnipeg, Manitoba.
MD No. 11: Signal Hill, Esquimalt, British Columbia.
MD No. 13: Calgary Public Building, Calgary, Alberta.

The recipients of trucks that year in the Kingston district were "B Battery", presumably RCA, and "3.MED." .

Originally posted by Vets Dottir 2nd
Death Registrations after 1936 are still held by the Office of the Registrar General.
Contact:

Office of the Registrar General
189 Red River Road
P.O. Box 4600
Thunder Bay, Ontario
Canada P7B 6L8

Tel: 416-325-8305
1-800-461-2156 (toll-free in Ontario

Hi Anthea,

Based on the marriage date 10 april 1943 - If Thomas was 35 on that day, then his day of birth would be between April 10, 1907 and April 10, 1908 This narrows your search down to that one "for sure" one year span.


PS: edited in later ...

Thomas would definately be listed in the 1911 census, with his family and others in the house.

If no Thomas showing up in Kingston area, then Thomas's family lived elsewhere (I assume still Ontario and maybe close to Kingston. Are there "districts or sub districts to Kingston??? Anyone know??? ) Bottom line, is he was alive and kicking when the 1911 census done and IS in there somewhere, for the finding.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

http://www.gov.on.ca/ont/portal/!ut/...n?docid=119282



Wow! Things seem to be different in Canada! It seems that you have to apply to the Registrar General for Ontario as the lovely lady suggested, and prove whom you are, by way of say Birth Certificates showing line of descent. Over here records are public information!

I would however strongly suggest endeavouring to find any Estate details assuming predecease, if such can be searched, to find out surviving kin if any. Armed with the date of death in the Estate records you should then be able to trace the Death Certificate and the info thereon may be very helpful.

Originally posted by David_Hayward
http://www.gov.on.ca/ont/portal/!ut/...n?docid=119282

Wow! Things seem to be different in Canada! It seems that you have to apply to the Registrar General for Ontario as the lovely lady suggested, and prove whom you are, by way of say Birth Certificates showing line of descent. Over here records are public information!

Hi David

I think Vital Statistics departments of each Province varies a bit in their rules of accessibility. Many Provinces - not all, this is fairly new services put online by some Provinces, and some offer free searchable databases, restricted within timeframes decided by that province. The free databases public a bit of basic info, and if you want the rest of the info from that record, you must order and pay a fee for copies of it.

I have NOT found that kind of free searchable (or payable) database for Ontario, so they must still completely control access through their Dept of Vital Stats.

The Province's time frames and dates of people they list is a huge wide range across Canada for accessing. Manitoba deaths of more than 70 years ago, BC only 20 years ago!

Example, Manitoba site restricts access to records to:
Births more than 100 years ago
Marriages more than 80 years ago
Deaths more than 70 years ago
http://vitalstats.gov.mb.ca/Query.php

and BC which looks like the info is still on microfiches and such and the index is of what they hold:
http://www.vs.gov.bc.ca/genealogy/electronic_index.html
(note BC FALLEN SOLDIERS: they also have: Index data related to the deaths of 3,423 British Columbians overseas during World War II. )

This BC site, below, has some accessible info online:
http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/s...bsearch/Deaths

Bottom line? Each Vital Stats dept per province does things differently

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
The recipients of trucks that year in the Kingston district were "B Battery", presumably RCA, and "3.MED." .

Hi David;

The two units would be:

"B" Battery, R.C.H.A. (Royal Canadian Horse Artillery)

and

3rd Medium Battery, R.C.A. (Royal Canadian Artillery)

both of which were Permmanent Active Militia batteries, or in other words, units of Canada's 'regular army' in 1938 and both based in Kingston.

Cheers

Originally posted by PPS
Karmen, I don't know what details various Canadian certificates give. Could you possibly me please, as it could help in other research I am trying to do.

Paul.

Hi Paul, special for you for your own researching interests, I thought I'd pop back in to tell you what sorts of info is on my own (Manitoba!!!) birth certificate and original birth registration forms. I pulled them out to have a look at mine. Don't know what other Provinces forms look like, but assume pretty much the same bits of info on them for births.

Birth Certificate: a wallet size card lists:

1) Full name, givens and surname.
2) Birth date
3) Birth place
4) Gender
5) Date issued (last date the newest one was issued to you)
6) Registration number (the file number with the vital stats folks)

Birth Registration Form (again, Manitoba for me):

Mine says "Official Notice of a Live Birth" and remember when reading it that this form is from my birth as standard form for Manitoba in 1954! but likely info pretty much the same these days?

1) Place/location of birth (including the name of hospital on mine )
2) Full name of child.
3) Gender.
4) Single/double or plural birth
5) Are the parents married to each other?
6) Date and actual time of birth.
7) Fathers name.
8) Residence of father.
9) Citizenship (of father)
10) Racial origin of father.
11) Age of father
12) Birthplace of father.
13) Occupation of father (a) trade, profession or kind of work / b) kind of industry or business
14) Full name of mother (plus includes names of former husband/s)
15) Residence of mother
16) Citizenship of mother
17) Racial origin of mother
18) Age of mother
19) Birthplace of mother
20) Occupation of mother a) trade, profession or kind of work / b) kind of industry or business (answer AT HOME if unemployed)
21) Children of this mother born alive/now living/stillborn
22) Weight at birth / length of pregnancy
23) Where were the parents married
24) When were the parents married
25) Name in full and residence of attending physician
26) Relationship of informant to child (who gave the bith info. Usually the mom)
27) Were you in the house at the time of birth?
28) Signature of mom or whoever informed, including their exact location of residence

In cases of unmarried parents, and the like, fathers name and information usually completely unfilled out as far as I know

It was great fun for me to find my birth length, birth weight and actual birth time on my registration ... and a shock to find "Scotch Halfbreed" for Mom's racial origin Those were the days, eh? Mom was English, Cree, Scotch, Fench and perhaps a wee bit 'o the Irish in 'er somewhere ("bastards" and "halfbreeds" not very socially acceptable in those days )

Maybe folks born in other Provinces can verify if their Province registration forms pretty much the same info collected ?

Hope this is helpful for you to know Paul!

Originally posted by David_Hayward
[B] My aunt was enaged to a Canadian serviceman, and I think several others during the war! However, my late father-in-law made an American girl pregnant wheilst he was in the RAF in Canada, and she was on holiday from the States: Fred came back to England and refused all treaties from the girl's father to marry his daughter. I believe he had no choice as he had made my late mother-in-law pregnant so had to have a quickie wedding in '44! So my wife has a half-brother somewhere and presumably nieces and nephews as well as a myriad of Canadian cousins by her father's brother and his then wife who emigrated to Canada post-war.

Aren't family histories amazing in all their little surprizing twists and turns off the attempted idealistic traditional courtship, engagement, marriage ways? Digging in the family's garden can find all sorts of roots we had no clue about

We humans, we do certainly make things hard and complicated for ourselves and others sometimes, eh?

Having said all that "in a laughing at ourselves way" pandora's box is a little rough on folks when it springs open to those unknowing, and out of the blue whammy. Hard especially on our elderly when attitudes and stigmas of "back then" are still part of their values today. Times were different "back then" and stigma hurt still feels fresh to some, decades after the facts. I have to respect the times and differences between the past and present. Things more open and accepting these days about so much ... but ... it's still so very hard and fresh for some to remember and talk about "old stuff". Painful and shameful often We gotta be gentle as possible I think when it comes to tripping through the family tree when loaded with "stuff"

I know if I could back track, that I would definately handle some things differently in how I went about handling family. Learn as I go and through hindsight Geneology has been a real learning curve for me, not just about family, but about all sorts of things, like learning more about the generations and the world through those times. Good stuff

[PPS]

Unless I have missed something somewhere, I have not been able to find a definite link to Thomas in the 1911 Census on the site that Karmen mentioned.

I have checked all states, and carried out a check of all the states together, but there is nothing that could definitely be said to be him unfortunately.

Is it possible that the whole family emigrated to Canada at some stage after the Census dates?

Paul