Lend lease Chevrolet 30 cwt truck information

[jeff]

Hi, i'm new to this forum and was wondering if anyone can help with some information about the history of the 30cwt lend lease chevs that were sent to Australia. A friend and i have 2 of these trucks ( a 134 1/2 inch wheelbase and a160 inch wheelbase) and have found little factual information about them. Both trucks are model 4409 RHD and were contract number DA-W-389-QM-418 according to the Maintence Manual. The questions that i have are;
Were the cabs sent to Australia as complete cabs or seperate panels and assembled by Holden? (All the trucks we have plus a number of spare cabs are the american cabs with a holden body plate but are assembled with clutch head screws. I mention the clutch head screws only because i haven't seen other holden products with these fasteners.)
Were the cabs painted in America or Australia and what colour?
I believe some were used by the Military and some for essential services hence my question about colour.
What plants in the USA produced these trucks? Are there any records of actual chassis no's and vehicle destinations? Mine has a chassis no 42 D4400-4B500 And engine no BFR496445. Any information would be appreciated.
Thanks jeff .

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am just rushing out but my page gives you the list of US military Chevies:
http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...tarychevs.html

The BFR engine code indicates a 1942-built Flint-built rhd 215 as fitted to a 1 1/2 tonner.

Somewhere I have a list of al Chevrolet WM contracts that will tell me how it was ordered.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The official parts lists say that it was one of two contracts for 1 1/2 ton with Large Stake [body](Export) or with Cargo [body], and as it was a 4409 not a 4403 it was a MS model! Code 31T on my table. I would imagine it was shipped from say Tarrytown Assembly Plant or Bloomfield Boxing Plant, knocked-down for local assembly but others may know more about the Holden operations. A fuly built-up truck would have a say 2MSXX12345 type serial, where '2' is Tarrytown, or 1MSXX12345 where '1' is Flint Plant. XX indicates month of assembly. The serial quoted makes me think it was a CKD assembly job.

[cliff]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

The serial quoted makes me think it was a CKD assembly job.

If it was a CKD assembled by Holden it would have been painted here probably in the Service Green of the day.

The two main differences between these 'lendlease' Chev's and Holden built cabs is the Holden built cab had a cowl vent on either side in front of the doors and the doors had 'Quarter' vent winds in the front of the roll down glass.

There are several other threads on these Chev's and perhaps someone with more knowledge of the search feature could find them and post the links for you.

Below are two photos of these type of Chev seen elsewhere on MLU and summited by other members of the forum A photo or 2 of yours would be appreciated as well

[jeff]

Thanks Cliff And David for the information so far.I've included a couple of photos of my longwheelbase (cream coloured lend lease) and an Australian cab chev truck (maroon truck obviously in pieces)that i have. The lend lease is very original and is just about to be registered.It still has the black-out lights and black-out driving light,all still operational. The original paint inside the cab appears to be maroon but the black out light original colour is army green, the original exterior paint colour is as yet unknown. Through research that i"ve done all USA trucks have a vin number on the cab and no chassis number. So i guess it makes sense that CKD trucks would have to have a chassis number. Do CMP trucks have chassis numbers? Is there a decoder for these numbers? Does anyone know if Australian records exist showing where these trucks were used?
Thanks Jeff.

[Jeff Gordon]

Jeff,
What a great name!
We are almost neighbours!
Welcome to MLU!
Do you have a copy of the History of Holden book by Norm Darwin?
Seen as how you live in Dayboro and I am in Samford you should drop in and I can show it to you. It has a little bit in it about it.
CMP do or should have chassis numbers. Try the left hand rail forward of the diff.
Cheers
Jeff

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Chevrolets did indeed have chassis numbers from trhe beginning, and are easily decodable except that assembled Holden, GM NZ and GM SA chassis were allocated numbers which included a plant code, and they had a different series to that of Oshawa plant.

Fords used the engine number throughout but in 1941 I think it was used a chassis number of sorts. Henry decried the use of chassis numbers, as States used engine numbers until 1955. However the model number (Ford) and official designation on the build plate was the identifier.

[jeff]

Hi jeff, indeed we are close by, and yes i do have a copy of Norm Darwin's book. What i really wanted to find out was what the chassis number meant eg.decoded. I just thought that CMP's may have used a similar chassis code. I was guessing and thought that my number 42 D4400-4B500 may have indicated 42 year model, D ?Defense? 4400 Models eg 4403 or 4409 depending on what body was fitted. I guess this is a little simplistic but there doesn't seem to be a lot of factual info about these lend lease chevs.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

42 D4400-4B500

My thought is that is:

1942 Model
D = Dept of Defence?
4400 = Chevrolet 4400 series or Defence 4400 Series
B = Brisbane Plant
500 = 500th assembled at Brisbane.

[EricVincentHancock]

Hi Jeff and Jeff of Queensland. I am currently restoring a 1942 Lendlease Chev with Stake Body. Engine number is BFR492940. It has a Holden badge on the firewall containing - Body P289 Model M14338 Serial No 4400
I understand from its maintenance Manual (TM 10-1339) and Parts List book (TM 10-1524 recently purchased) that it is a Model 4409.
An elderly former Aiforce driver now deceased told me a few years ago that the Lend Lease Chevs were flat packed and shipped to Australia during WW2 to be used for both the australian Armed Services and for the war effort generally. He told me that a shipment to Western Ausralia was assembled in the Holden factory that was then in the Perth suburb or Mosman Park.
P = Perth and mine is the 289th built in Perth. I understand shipments also went to A = Adelaide and B = Brisbane. Two other plates I have seen in WA are P40 and P280 both Model 4400 and three other engines begin with BFR.
I also am interested in more Australian history of Lend Lease Chevs. I will insert some images when I work out how to.
Regards, Eric

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I can imagine that M = Melbourne plant (chassis assembly) with body assembly and association with the chassis in Perth.

[EricVincentHancock]

Hi David and two Jeffs,
Attached are images from the manual



Regards, Eric

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The same ones appear in the Master Parts List! However those are good scans, so thank you very much!!!

[jeff]

Hi Eric, thanks for the info. When you say 'flat packed 'do you think that the chassis ,had the wheels off and boxed or that it was a rolling chassis with the cab boxed and sitting on top of the chassis. What about the front guards, grill, etc attached or packed? The Holden body plate on my cab only has a body no. 488 with no prefix letter. The model no. and serial no. are not stamped. What chassis no is on yours? Is it similar in configeration to mine? I read in Norm Darwins book that Holden produced a pressed steel tray that was fitted to lend lease chevs. We have one truck with a pressed tray and stake pockets that looks identical to the picture of the model 4409 shown in the front of the Maintenance Manual. So i would think this tray is U.S. made. So there is another question, were they supplied from the U.S with the tray? Jeff.

[cliff]

Originally Posted by jeff

When you say 'flat packed 'do you think that the chassis ,had the wheels off and boxed or that it was a rolling chassis with the cab boxed and sitting on top of the chassis. What about the front guards, grill, etc attached or packed? So there is another question, were they supplied from the U.S with the tray? Jeff.

The vehicles were CKD or Completely Knocked Down and complete in most cases with rear bodies. All they needed was to be assembled by Holden.

The attached photo from the AWM data base has the caption...


ID Number: 130235
Maker: Barrett, Reginald Mervyn
Physical description: Black & white
Summary: MOOREBANK, NSW. 1946-08-05. A VAST STACK OF CHEVROLET TRUCKS, STILL IN CASES AT 5 BASE ORDNANCE DEPOT.
Copyright: Copyright expired - public domain
Copyright holder: Copyright Expired
Related subject: Trucks
Related unit: 5 Base Ordnance Depot
Related place: Moorebank

Related conflict: Second World War, 1939-1945

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Jeff and Eric - welcome to MLU. Attached is the instrumentation that your truck should have. Coincidently, I just happen to scratch build or restore these panels to full working condition. Contact me if interested.

Salesman Bob (If you've got it, flaunt it)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by cliff

The vehicles were CKD or Completely Knocked Down and complete in most cases with rear bodies. All they needed was to be assembled by Holden.

Just to set the record straight:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

CKD: Completely Knocked Down. CKD should not be confused with trucks being encased, after first being 'knocked down' as much as considered practical. CKD was restricted to destinations where the manufacturers had proper assembly plants. CKD entailed the supply of parts which could not - or not economically - be produced locally, supplemented by parts which could. Besides packing methods for trucks that had to be reassembled on arrival, the CKD-pack method was also used but this entailed parts and components which had not been assembled before and then dismantled for shipment. They comprised the necessary numbers of subassemblies and parts for a given quantity of chassis which would be assembled in much the same way as it was done in the Canadian factory.

As far as I know Holden did more than just assemble vehicles shipped over 100% complete.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

CKD = Completely Knocked Down; kits of components in crates that when they arrived were a major headache as crates were lost and mixed up.

SKD = Semi Knocked Down; replaced CKD in England after first few hundred CMPs. Basically, as I understand, complete vehicles but disassembled into crates.

SUP = Single Unit Packs; complete vehicles without say bodies, shipped uncrated perhaps

TUP = Twin Unit Packs; two crates. I understand that these were two vehicles in one crate, as against one vehicle in two crates.

I believe that Holden's received CKD, SKD and SUP/TUP crates. Those chasiss that were CKD were components shipped across for complete assembly with Holden-built cabs, thus acquiring Holden chassis numbers. Those shipped SKD etc. were complete vehicles requiring some form of assembly or at the least bodying and thus carried a plate from the original N American plant.

[EricVincentHancock]

Hi All, I understood that 'flat packed' meant parts ready for assembly. This would be compacted and crated for shipping. Perhaps about 300 arrived in Western Australia in one ship. The chassis is rivited together and could also easily been assembeled with fairly simple machinery. The body is screwed and spot welded - again not complicated. My truck appears to be as per the 1942 manual I have with only small variations.
My chassis does not have a serial number (I sandblasted myself so should have seen if one existed).
Jeff (Dayboro) - I remember seeing a web page with a Chev optionional steel tray. I will post address when I find again.
Attached is my 1942 Chev in the 1960's and more recently prior to restoration commencement.
Regards, Eric

[EricVincentHancock]

Hi All, Look at web site www.brads41-46chevys.com and in heading Stake Bed there are good diagrams and info on stake bodies. the site also shows dimensions and break down of cabs. My cab is currently dismantled to the extent required to fix the floor and rusted panels. It can then be spot welded, screwed and bolted together again.
Regards, Eric

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

CKD = Completely Knocked Down; kits of components in crates that when they arrived were a major headache as crates were lost and mixed up.

SKD = Semi Knocked Down; replaced CKD in England after first few hundred CMPs. Basically, as I understand, complete vehicles but disassembled into crates.

SUP = Single Unit Packs; complete vehicles without say bodies, shipped uncrated perhaps

TUP = Twin Unit Packs; two crates. I understand that these were two vehicles in one crate, as against one vehicle in two crates.

I believe that Holden's received CKD, SKD and SUP/TUP crates. Those chasiss that were CKD were components shipped across for complete assembly with Holden-built cabs, thus acquiring Holden chassis numbers. Those shipped SKD etc. were complete vehicles requiring some form of assembly or at the least bodying and thus carried a plate from the original N American plant.

We should get this right once and for all.

CKD, Completely Knocked Down, is an really a different manufacturing system, rather than a different type of crating for shipment.

One type of manufacturing is to source all the parts required to assemble a certain type of vehicle, and assemble them into a working vehicle at an assembly plant in country A, test it, after which it is scrutinised and accepted by a goverment official. After full assembly, it can be partly dismantled and crated to be shipped to it´s destination in country B. The crating can be done at the assembly plant, or at a depot type of facility where vehicles are prepared for shipment.

Some types of vehicle can be easily (partly) dismantled and will be crated, others (like tanks) are sealed for weather influences. SKD , SUP, TUP etc. are all methods of packing complete vehicles into crates for shipping. At the destination nothing more than labour and tools are needed to uncrate the vehicle and re-attach the bits that have been removed to decrease it´s volume for efficient shipping.

Now, Completely Knocked Down means sourcing some parts required to assemble a certain type of vehicle in country A, crate these parts, and ship them to an assembly plant in country B where the shipped parts are uncrated and locally sourced parts are feeded to the assembly line after which a complete, running vehicle will emerge for the first time.

In the case of e.g. the Indian deliveries, Ford and Chevrolet both had local assembly plants or contractors, so they only had to send over chassis, engines, gearboxes, axles, cowl parts, etc. The local asembly plant(s) sourced bodywork, tyres, cab parts etc. to complete the vehicle.

I hope this sets the record straight.

I´ll get off my soapbox now

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

There is enough evidence to suggest that General Motors invented the term ''Completely Knocked Down' or CKD', and this started with the Tarrytown, New York plant and also Oshawa, Ontario (the latter late 1922 to November 1923). In fact it was probably specifically James D Mooney, then head (President) of General Motors Export Company as was. Tarrytown phased out CKD production in June-July 1925 in favour of Bloomfield Boxing Plant, whioch started on 21st May 1925 with crates leaving for GM International, Copenhagen. These were crates of components for local assembly, with local assembly plants adding their own cabs, tyres, etc. sourced locally if possible and of course4 bodies. GM India, Bombay, GM Near East, Alexandria, GM South African, Port Elizabeth, GM-Holden's (as would become from 1931), were all local assembly plants that received Bloomfield shipments, supplemented by chassis only from Oshawa to Holden's in/from 1935. Studies of magazines shows that chassis were shipped as components from 1925 for local welding -up and assembly. By 1936 Bloomfield announced the degree to which they had reduced crating size for their component-shipping. This expertise was later used during the war as the 1944 GM Overseas Operations was at pains to broadcast ( they blew their own trumpets!).

CKD shipments were attempted for CMPs in spring 1940 for British assembly in Southampton (and Dagenham) but the system was found wanting, and SKD replaced it rapidly.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

There is enough evidence to suggest that General Motors invented the term ''Completely Knocked Down' or CKD',
*snip*
This expertise was later used during the war as the 1944 GM Overseas Operations was at pains to broadcast ( they blew their own trumpets!).

This is endorsed by the differences in CKD content (what was shipped from Canada) between Chevrolet and Ford, as listed by Mike Cecil in the thread "Antipodean Ford CMPs" on the Old MLU Forum:

• Chevrolet: all chassis and mechanicals, wheels. Rest manufactured locally: complete cabs, complete bodies, spare tyre rack and tool box.
  
• Ford: all chassis, mechanicals, cab floor/lower cab frame, upper (windscreen) cab frame, doors, windscreen frames, front shell, wheels. Rest manufactured locally in Aust: cab floor, engine cover, cab back, roof, guards, spare wheel carrier & tool box, body.

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

That makes sense to me...thanks for that! Dagenham of course sent out knocked-down vehicles but nowhere near that sent out by GM boxing plants. That said, Tarrytown and Oshawa also exported as required chassis only or chassis with front end.

[jeff]

Hi Eric, the chassis number on all of our trucks is directly to the rear of the passenger side front spring rear hanger. Stamped in letters about 1/2'' high. Looks like the Perth assembled trucks put all the info on the body plate whereas Brisbane units only recorded a body number on the body plate and the serial no etc on the chassis. Most of the body and chassis numbers on the same truck are about 20 units apart. Which seems to indicate they were assembled seperately. Still can't work out whether cabs came over here complete or in pieces. Did you work out what colour your truck was originally? After seeing Cliff's attachment ,I've added some photos from the AWM showing boxes marked Chevrolet .

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's an example of CKD kits, which are made up of parts and components which have not been assembled before. A CKD kit comprised the necessary numbers of subassemblies and parts for a given quantity of chassis which would be assembled in much the same way as it was done in the Canadian factory using locally produced parts as much as possible.

Interesting to see these Cab 11 or 12 cowls in Light Stone, while the seats are painted Khaki. In the background is a case holding "body & chassis"

"Original Toronto Star caption: Tools For Britain are rolling out in ever-increasing numbers from Canada's factories; and 24 United States newspapermen saw them roll yesterday at General Motors Oshawa Plant. Here some of them see the cab of an army truck; being readied for shipment."

Source: https://digitalarchive.tpl.ca/object...easing-numbers

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

We should get this right once and for all.

CKD, Completely Knocked Down, is an really a different manufacturing system, rather than a different type of crating for shipment.

One type of manufacturing is to source all the parts required to assemble a certain type of vehicle, and assemble them into a working vehicle at an assembly plant in country A, test it, after which it is scrutinised and accepted by a goverment official. After full assembly, it can be partly dismantled and crated to be shipped to it's destination in country B. The crating can be done at the assembly plant, or at a depot type of facility where vehicles are prepared for shipment.

Some types of vehicle can be easily (partly) dismantled and will be crated, others (like tanks) are sealed for weather influences. SKD , SUP, TUP etc. are all methods of packing complete vehicles into crates for shipping. At the destination nothing more than labour and tools are needed to uncrate the vehicle and re-attach the bits that have been removed to decrease it´s volume for efficient shipping.

Now, Completely Knocked Down means sourcing some parts required to assemble a certain type of vehicle in country A, crate these parts, and ship them to an assembly plant in country B where the shipped parts are uncrated and locally sourced parts are feeded to the assembly line after which a complete, running vehicle will emerge for the first time.

In the case of e.g. the Indian deliveries, Ford and Chevrolet both had local assembly plants or contractors, so they only had to send over chassis, engines, gearboxes, axles, cowl parts, etc. The local assembly plant(s) sourced bodywork, tyres, cab parts etc. to complete the vehicle.

I hope this sets the record straight.

I´ll get off my soapbox now