Aussie Matilda interior color

[cliff]

Just after the correct color of the interior of the Aussie Matilda and also the color of the hatch interior side.

I am doing a 1/35 scale model of one and wish to leave the hatches open.

cheers
Cliff

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

it would be white with medium brown vinyl seat covers and bumper pads. The pericsopes are dull silver (natural white metal), black 5/8" lettering on the bins and (my favorite) red/white/green on the face of the very signal cartridge container. Securing straps and canvas are tan '37 web with black rubber strap if used.

Later WW2 and post war British AFV's were aluminium painted on the inside. I'd be curious to know when the change occured.

Valentine:

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

the same era and origin of a Matilda

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Hatches were painted the exterior colour but are sometimes seen white, usually for 'dress up'. All this is assuming you Aussies didn't paint your Matildas some other colour due to being in the southern hemisphere, or because of the counter rotation of the earth down there, or something.

[cliff]

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
Hatches were painted the exterior colour but are sometimes seen white, usually for 'dress up'. All this is assuming you Aussies didn't paint your Matildas some other colour due to being in the southern hemisphere, or because of the counter rotation of the earth down there, or something.

LOL we may have

thanks for that I appreciate it greatly.

cheers
Cliff

[centurion]

Pictures of the interior of the Sentinel (on the web at http://www.mheaust.com.au/Aust/Resea...sentinel13.htm ) suggest that Australian interiors (at least of the armoured rather than human variety) followed UK practice in using white paint. Elsewhere on the same site details of a Ferret C1947 also indicate that the later pattern of silver was also followed. Possibly though they stirred the paint in a widershins direction.

[Neil Ashley]

"Later WW2 and post war British AFV's were aluminium painted on the inside. I'd be curious to know when the change occured".

Following on from Bruce's comments above, my option on this is that silver was always the standard colour but white was used on some contracts during the war due to the shortage of pigments.

I remember speaking to David Fletcher on this subject about ten years who just happened to have the original build specs for Matilda 1 open on his desk. This from memory stated fire resistant aluminium paint. I have also assisted in the restoration of two Humber MkIV Armoured Cars which although they had crudely over-painted white interiors, the base colour was silver.

As a result you can find British AFV's in either colour.

Any comments?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
I have also assisted in the restoration of two Humber MkIV Armoured Cars which although they had crudely over-painted white interiors, the base colour was silver.

Any comments?

Neil,

Interesting one......I did some work on a Humber Scout Car. It has never been stripped down and restored, rather more like preserved. It had white paint inside, done in fairly recent years, under that was a more creamy white, obviously done while in service. On stripping it inside to carry out repairs, some items were removed from the hull and it had a silver base coat, .......no white under that. Now it may have undergone a base overhaul in post war years, but I would like to think silver is the correct colour for when it was new.

Richard

[centurion]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
Later WW2 and post war British AFV's were aluminium painted on the inside. I'd be curious to know when the change occured.

Following on from Bruce's comments above, my option on this is that silver was always the standard colour but white was used on some contracts during the war due to the shortage of pigments.


I have found a number of fleeting references to early WW2 British AFVs having silver interiors to make the most of the dim interior lighting. In an article for Missing Link Peter Brown writes "The British Expeditionary Force's armoured vehicles were painted in a disruptive scheme of Dark Bronze Green, applied by the troops themselves over the basic factory Khaki Green. All AFVs also had white squares approximately 12" per side located so as to be visible from any direction, on Matilda I's they were on the hull sides, engine deck and turret rear and also on other surfaces. Interior was to be painted in aluminium paint. " Yet I have seen many interior shots of various Commonwealth vehicles clearly painted in white, and well painted at that - not some crude in the field paint over. The pages on the following link include some very good Matilda II interiors to illustrate this point. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lsm/dhmg/mahon2.html
I would suspect that the original standard was indeed for silver but this was soon superceded by white - a standard adopted by at least the Australians as well as the British - and some already silver painted interiors were retrospectively painted white (hence some of the examples quoted in this thread). This would suggest that the reason was other than a shortage of silver paint. Post War there was a reversion to silver. Again this would suggest the reason for whaite was in response to some specific wartime need.

[Richard Farrant]

The silver paint is of a special type that does not harden as other paints do. This is to prevent flakes of paint bursting from the interior of the hull surface in the event of shellfire hitting the hull. The damage that hard flakes of paint can cause, can be imagined.
It could be that the silver paint was in short supply during the war and white was substituted. WW2 US armour is generally white inside.

Richard

[centurion]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
The silver paint is of a special type that does not harden as other paints do. This is to prevent flakes of paint bursting from the interior of the hull surface in the event of shellfire hitting the hull. The damage that hard flakes of paint can cause, can be imagined.

Interesting in the light of two items I've dug out :
The first is from a services forum about the Challenger 2

"BTW, what is it with the white paint in Ch2; we were always told that silver paint went to powder when struck and white paint flakes were a hazard?"

Which supports the anti flake concept BUT the second is from a UK vehicle restoration forum and refers to a Ferret

"He struck one "trick" that it is well worth being aware of: the dealer had repainted the inside of the vehicle, in silver. The original Daimler factory silver paint is actually a fire resistant paint and to my knowledge is okay. What had been used on Ken's vehicle is probably the cheapest rubbish available in order to "tart the vehicle up" to make it look presentable. Ken discovered this to his cost when he climbed in the vehicle wearing a suit; this paint does not fully dry. He was far from amused."

Is it possible that this was not the rogue dealer using cheapo paint but the real non hardening stuff? Such paint is still used today in various industries, I've used it (not on a vehicle) and it would be hell in a vehicle were one was constanly rubbing against the surfaces (as in the confines of an AFV). One scenario that fits is that first came the original anti flake aluminium paint, this proved unaceptable and was painted over in the field with white as per the US standard. White was then adopted as a factory finish until a better non flaking silver became available (and for some reason this has again been superceded).

I've found two lots of photos of late model Churchills painted silver inside. The first appears to come from this forum but strangely I've not been able to access it from inside MLU so I enclose the URL (it is a link in at least two online encyclopedia). The second refers to a restoration project. At least one shows a shot through a hatch into a silver interior.

http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/cac/churchill2.html
http://www.armourinfocus.co.uk/a22/index.htm

I guess the answer to the query that started this thread is toss a coin as silver or white seem equally possible (although the fact that the all Australian Sentinel was in white would make me plump for the latter).

I also include a link to some nice shots of a Stuart under restoration as an example of the US use of white. Just to muddy the water this site states that some US tanks had pale green interiors
http://www.752ndtank.com/fsmmstuart.html

[cliff]

thanks for the help guys it is much appreciated

cheers
Cliff

[Douglas Greville]

It may well be that the answer to the white/silver internal paint issue with the Oz army is as simple as the fact that the army carried basic colours eg, black, white, green (& perhaps brown
and yellow).

Silver would not have been something I would have
expected to see outside of base workshop if there even.

US vehicles were painted white internally.

Much easier to just use existing paint supplies and paint
the inside of all armoured vehicles white, including English sourced ones when they needed sprucing up.

Post war, with depot level rebuilds (eg Ferret) silver/aluminium
paint was re-applied.
Vehicles that appear to have been painted internally by the
crew (easy to tell, they were too lazy or in too much of a hurry
to unbolt anything including the radio mounts, so they just
painted as far as they could reach!) were done in white or
sea foam green (M113 interior colour).

Regards
Doug

[cantankrs]

Hi All,

Hope no-one minds me adding to this old thread - I figure a thread should never be allowed to die while any life can be given it, or help gleaned from it.

Concensus above is that US armour such as M3 light and medium tanks had white interiors. I would like to pick the right interior colour very shortly for our Grant (to seal what we've red-oxide primed, because it's still located outdoors, not because we've anywhere near finished surgery). I always thought it was gloss from other resto's I've seen but I read another thread here at MLU that I haven't relocated, that said the original interior white (possibly for an AC) was a flat or matte. (Can't recall the difference between flat and matte yet - anyone mention satin? ).

Also fire retardant paint has been mentioned - which makes some sense especially in a petrol radial vehicle.

I've seen an M3 Medium hull in Aust that someone painted silver in the last 10 years which seems incorrect. The few M3's I've seen with original flaking interior paint have 'yellowed' to some extent. Also I've seen that removed fuel tank cover plates, and other such fixtures and fittings reveals Red oxide primer as the white was applied a certain way into assembly. Our Grant was certainly white over red primer in the crew compartment.

So over again to MLU'ers?

All help much appreciated.

Thanks

Alex

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

It's all the same. One other thing that may have been mentioned before (or not) is that the interior paint (UK or USA) was matte and very 'chalk-like'. The purpose was to have it fragment to a powder rather than chunks if the vehicle's hull was penetrated by an anti-tank round. Even a small flake of regular paint at high velocity would become shrapnel. The story goes that this caused grief in Commonwealth armoured formations because the powdery interior paint easlily scuffed off creating both imperfect uniforms and vehicles come inspection time. Having said that, the NOS Canadian parts I've seen are almost semi-gloss but have yellowed a great deal over time.

[matilda IIA]

Hi Gents

My experience is that silver is the original colour, and white is the secondary coat applied some time later as silver is under all the hull fittings. I have vehicles that have never been painted white on the inside and others that are all white.
Kind regards
Matt

[cantankrs]

Originally Posted by matilda IIA

My experience is that silver is the original colour, and white is the secondary coat applied some time later as silver is under all the hull fittings. I have vehicles that have never been painted white on the inside and others that are all white.

Hi Matt,

The original start of this thread was specifically Matilda, but I have used it recently to establish US armour interior colour.

Just to clarify - when you say silver, I presume you're referring to armoured vehicles of British manufacture during WWII that you've experienced (I believe most if not all post war British armour was silver), but are you also saying you've found mostly silver as the original colour in WWII US manufactured armour as well?

Best Regards

Alex

[matilda IIA]

Maaate

I know nothing of US vehicles, ( thats why my US Parts are only in the semi precious pile outside !) I am only making comment based on my experience with 1930's early 40's British Armour.

Kind regards
Matt

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by matilda IIA

Maaate

I know nothing of US vehicles, ( thats why my US Parts are only in the semi precious pile outside !) I am only making comment based on my experience with 1930's early 40's British Armour.

Hi Matt,

I've been reading this thread with interest, regarding British armour only, I believe that a silver paint was used before the war and early into it. Then I understand that silver paint was in short supply and white was used. Then post war a silver paint was used again. The postwar paint was supposed to be fireproof and non-hardening, it tended to rub off on your boots and clothes when working inside. This was to stop flakes of paint inside if hit by shellfire. Having seen a prewar Vickers Light Tank that was brought in from Australia years ago, that was definitely in silver ( made in 1936 ), it was basically in scrap condition, not restored so was quite original.

I must add that this is a flat non shiny silver.........not to be confused with aluminium paint.

[tankbarrell]

I'm not convinced there was an industry wide change from silver to white but assuming there was, I think it reverted to silver by 1943 as all of the Centaurs, Cromwells, Churchills and Comets I have had anything to do with were silver as the first and only colour. Other manufacturers and therefore other vehicles may have changed later?