ID on Canadian Sight Telescope

[tankmodeler]

The family went to the Cristie Antique Sale yesterday in Dundas looking for new/old details for the new house. While trolling the booths I came upon a military looking telescope. To cut a short story shorter, I am now in possession of a Telescope, Sighting, No. 37 Mk I(S), which, I believe, is the sighting telescope for a Ram Mk II. The sight was made in Canada and is stamped with the ^ Canada symbol. It was made in 1942 and (and this is the kicker) the reticule inside is marked not only for 6 pdr on the left, but M.G. on the right. Now, I can't think of any other vehicle than a Ram Mk II that would have a 6 pdr & co-ax that would come equipped with a Canadian built sight in 1942, can you? Churchills, Crusaders & Cromwells should have UK built sights, right?

Further markings are:

"R.E.L. ^CANADA"
"1942 4964-C"


If anyone has any specific info on the Ram sights, please let me know.

Paul Roberts

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

The gunners vision device..ie periscope is a Minneapolis Honeywell on the Ram l and is replaced with a ventilator on the Mark ll.........
The sighting telescope is a No. 33 on the Mark l and a No.22 C mark ll on the Ram Mark ll......
The maker of the gun sighting telescope is not given,but is in the same paragraph as the periscope so may also be M-H also,but not certain..

[tankmodeler]

what would need a Canadian sighting telescope with a reticule for 6 pdr and MG? Curious.

Anyone? Anyone? Beuler?

Paul

[rob love]

The 4964-C is the serial number, which means there would have been at least this many no37 scopes built. Hard to believe they would have built almost 5000 scopes for 1948 (or is it 1949) ram tanks.

Valentine mkVIII to mkX maybe?

[Gunner]

Like the CMP trucks, not all the kit made in Canada was for purely Canadian use. I don't know which tank the No. 37 scope fits but it could be any Commonwealth tank which had the six pounder as a main armament (with a coax MG).

Mike

[REL]

Originally Posted by Alex Blair

The sighting telescope is a No. 33 on the Mark l and a No.22 C mark ll on the Ram Mark ll......

Shocked to read that as the No22 is a 1" tube with no magnification and decidedly short eye relief. In no way does it compare to a proper AFV gunsight, even of WWII vintage.

Must have been a "compromise solution", and hopefully a temporary one!

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by REL

Shocked to read that as the No22 is a 1" tube with no magnification and decidedly short eye relief. In no way does it compare to a proper AFV gunsight, even of WWII vintage.

Must have been a "compromise solution", and hopefully a temporary one!

Actually, all marks of the the "Telescope, Sighting No. 22 and 22C had a magnification of 1.9X which, granted, isn't much. I've read that the 22C could also have been used with the 25pdr so the production of this sight wouldn't have been limited to Ram II production numbers. My 22C has a serial number of 9980-C. There are no markings on the focal plane other than "L", "R", and 4 graticules on the horizontal line. I also have the P37 webbing made for the sight to protect the eyepieces when the sight isn't mounted suggesting that it might have been common for the sight to be stored elsewhere than on it's tank, howitzer, or gun. Derek.

[charlie fitton]

on the correct sides?

[John McGillivray]

Originally Posted by Alex Blair

The gunners vision device..ie periscope is a Minneapolis Honeywell on the Ram l and is replaced with a ventilator on the Mark ll.........
The sighting telescope is a No. 33 on the Mark l and a No.22 C mark ll on the Ram Mark ll......
The maker of the gun sighting telescope is not given,but is in the same paragraph as the periscope so may also be M-H also,but not certain..

Strange!

On the site linked below the No 22C sight is listed as being for the 6pdr Anti-tank gun and not for tanks. The No 39 sight is for tanks with the 6 pdr tank gun and the 7.92mm Besa MG. (No39 IIS for the 6pdr Mk III and No39 IV for the 6 pdr Mk V)

My guess is that the Paul is right about the sight No 37 being for the Ram II with the 6pdr and .30 Browning.


http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.p...data&Itemid=61

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by John McGillivray

My guess is that the Paul is right about the sight No 37 being for the Ram II with the 6pdr and .30 Browning.


http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.p...data&Itemid=61

Although not an AFV scope, the list is missing the No.32 Mks I, II and III and L1A1 sniping rifle scope!

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by John McGillivray

Strange!

On the site linked below the No 22C sight is listed as being for the 6pdr Anti-tank gun and not for tanks. The No 39 sight is for tanks with the 6 pdr tank gun and the 7.92mm Besa MG. (No39 IIS for the 6pdr Mk III and No39 IV for the 6 pdr Mk V)

My guess is that the Paul is right about the sight No 37 being for the Ram II with the 6pdr and .30 Browning.


http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.p...data&Itemid=61

The information that I posted came out of the original Ram Tank maintenance manual under the aux equipment..You can check it out if you like but that is where I got the info..The Ram Mark 2 was,I believe ,fitted for a 6 pounder late in the war ..but not sure..The info may have been printed in the manual for that mod for the Two pound gun..weather the mod actually took place ,I don't know..but the scope info is in the manual..

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by charlie fitton

on the correct sides?

No, the "L" is to the right of the the vertical stadia and the "R" is to the left. It's kinda like when you're adjusting the front sight of a rifle...you move the sight in the opposite direction you want the POI to move to. Anyone know the reason for location of the "L" and "R"?

[REL]

Originally Posted by sapper740

Actually, all marks of the the "Telescope, Sighting No. 22 and 22C had a magnification of 1.9X which, granted, isn't much. I've read that the 22C could also have been used with the 25pdr so the production of this sight wouldn't have been limited to Ram II production numbers. My 22C has a serial number of 9980-C. There are no markings on the focal plane other than "L", "R", and 4 graticules on the horizontal line. I also have the P37 webbing made for the sight to protect the eyepieces when the sight isn't mounted suggesting that it might have been common for the sight to be stored elsewhere than on it's tank, howitzer, or gun. Derek.

Looking through my No.22C MkII, R.E.L., 1942, 6699-C, I can see the slight magnification. It is specified in a manual on using the 25 Pdr. as an AT gun that I have a copy of dated 1942, along with the No.29 sight. The eye relief is about 3" at full field of view. This is the sight that is noted as giving 6 Pdr. gun layers black eyes in North Africa. There doesn't seem to have any any kind of rubber eye cup provided. I assume the reversed R and L on the crosshairs were to help the gunner lead a crossing target by referring to the direction of travel. Presumably the design was an expedient. One wonders why the No.24 sight for the 2 Pdr. was not modified to fit as the guns were practically useless and the No.24 looks much larger and more suitable - it even has a rubber eye cup!

[r_zerr]

Gentlemen,

I have two telescopes that may suit your needs far more than mine, should anyone be interested. They belonged to a friend of mine who has passed, and were amongst his "collection" of odds and ends.

Both are "new" in the box, marked with Telescope, Sighting, No. 22 Mk II REL(C) 1942. The boxes appear to be original as they are marked with that same information, although they do not appear so yellowed as to have been made in 1942 (I could be wrong as they have been stored out of light).

I am located in the Southwest portion of the U.S.A. and can be reached via P.M. or by phone 915-494-1892

-Ron Zerr

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

I ran across this list of scopes and their uses which may help with future identification///

British Sighting Telescopes PDF Print E-mail
Written by David Boyd
Thursday, 01 January 2009 21:18
British Sighting Telescopes

Below is a listing of sighting telescopes used in British tanks and Artillery, the list is probably not complete as there are so many variants were there is little or no data available.

Telescope


Used by


Magnification


Field of View (degrees)


Notes















No.22


25/18pdr


1.9


21


Can be used on 2pdr

No.22C Mk I/II


Early 6pdr Anti-Tank Guns


1.9


21


Can be used on 25pdr

No.22C Mk III


Later 6pdr Anti-Tank Guns


3


13




No.24B


2pdr Anti-Tank Gun


1.9


21




No.29


25pdr Howitzer


1.9


21




No.30


Tanks with 2pdr, 15mm or 3" How + machine gun


1.9


21




No.31


3" Howitzer in A.22 Hull


1.9


21




No.33


As No.30


1.9


21


Simplified edition of No.30

No.30 Mk IIS


Tanks with 2pdr + 7.92mm Besa


1.9


21




No.30 Mk III





1.9


21




No.30 Mk IV


Tanks with 2pdr + 7.92mm Besa (APCBC markings)


1.9


21




No.34


3" Howitzer in A.22 Hull


1.9


21




No.39 Mk IIS


Tanks with Mk III 6pdr + 7.92mm Besa


1.9


21




No.39 Mk IV


Tanks with Mk V 6pdr + 7.92 Besa


3


13




No.41


17pdr Anti-Tank Guns (Early)


1.9


21




No.41 Mk IIS





1.9


21




No.43 x 3 L Mk I


Tanks with 17pdr and .30" Browning


3


13


Shermans only

No.43 x 3 Mk I


Tanks with 17pdr and .30" Browning


3


13


First 23 Challengers

No.43 x 3 ML Mk III


Tanks with 17pdr and .30" Browning


3


13


Challenger, 6x eyepiece provided

No.43 x 3 Ml Mk III/I


Tanks with 17pdr and .30" Browning


3


13


Sherman C. 6x eyepiece provided

No.48 x 1.9 Mk I


Tanks with 95mm Howitzer and 7.92mm Besa


1.9


21


For Hull MG

No.48 x 3 L Mk I


Tanks with 95mm Howitzer and 7.92mm Besa


3


21


Standard for turret

No.50 x 1.9 Mk IS


Hull MG for Tanks with 75mm Mk V


1.9


21




No.50 x 3 L Mk I


Tanks with 75mm Mk V and 7.92mm Besa


3


13




No.50 x 3 ML Mk. II


Tanks with 75mm Mk V and 7.92mm Besa


3


13




No.51


17pdr Anti-Tank Guns (Later)


3


13


Originally No.41 Mk III

No. 54x3 ML Mk I


Tanks with 6pdr Mk V and 7.92mm Besa


3


13




No. 54x 1.9 Mk IS


Hull MG for Tanks with 6pdr Mk V


1.9


21




No. 57 x 1.9 Mk I


Tanks with 77mm gun and 7.92 Besa (Comet)


1.9


21


Hull MG

No. 57 x 3 ML Mk I


Tanks with 77mm gun and 7.92 Besa (Comet)


3


13


Standard for turret

Sources - 2pdr/6pdr/17pdr/25pdr Handbooks, AVIA 22 456 - 514, Various tank handbooks
Last Updated on Saturday, 03 January 2009 15:05

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by r_zerr

Gentlemen,

I have two telescopes that may suit your needs far more than mine, should anyone be interested. They belonged to a friend of mine who has passed, and were amongst his "collection" of odds and ends.

Both are "new" in the box, marked with Telescope, Sighting, No. 22 Mk II REL(C) 1942. The boxes appear to be original as they are marked with that same information, although they do not appear so yellowed as to have been made in 1942 (I could be wrong as they have been stored out of light).

I am located in the Southwest portion of the U.S.A. and can be reached via P.M. or by phone 915-494-1892

-Ron Zerr

Ron ..
According to the chart I just listed the scopes you have would have been used on the early 6 pounder anti tank..gun..or mounted early 6 pounder gun/..No. 22 Mk II REL(C) 1942.

[REL]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:B:WNA:US:1123

The insterted "C" designation usually meant a modification proposed by REL and accepted by the military authorities, so I am led to believe.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by REL

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...:B:WNA:US:1123

The insterted "C" designation usually meant a modification proposed by REL and accepted by the military authorities, so I am led to believe.

#33 was used on tanks with the 2 pound gun..the C #39 scope was used on the tanks with the 6 pound gun..This could have been in a Ram tank with a 2 pound gun that was up graded to a 6 Pound gun..the original scope was kept and re calibrated and reused in the same tank with the new 6 pound gun..or some such scenario..
But the scope is just an upgrade from a two pound to a 6 pound gun application..re calibrated and re stamped to signify same..
A true piece of history.