M151a2

[Ed Storey]

Can a Canadian CFR number be determined from the vehicle serial number on the data plate? In this case a Canadian M151A2 has a serial number of 43719.

Thank you.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Ed, I have a CD with over 400 pages of CFRs and the relevant vehicle's VIN. See the M38A1 posts for a sample page. When I am back on leave, in September, I will answer this for you - unless another forum member responds first.
Clive

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by edstorey

Can a Canadian CFR number be determined from the vehicle serial number on the data plate? In this case a Canadian M151A2 has a serial number of 43719.

Thank you.

Not only does the CFR completely differ from the Serial Number, to add to the complexity of finding the CFR for an M151A2, they were not procured in numerical order. So finding the CFR will require literally bracketing it in the list. In my case, it took about 300 CFR entries in the system to find my Serial Number.

I'll start hunting in the morning and see what I can find.

Any pictures of the said M151A2?? I'm always curious.

Scotty B

[Ed Storey]

Thank you, I will get a photo to post.

[Scott Bentley]

43719 = 74-09204

I'm still hunting for info, but it was disposed at CFB Calgary.

More to follow....

Scotty

[Scott Bentley]

Ed,

Unfortunately, your CFR no longer exists in the "good" EDR Viewer database that shows Unit/VMO History and Repairs/Mods completed.

Hopefully you can post up a picture, as i'm curious to it. The Body I used for my project was a 1 SVC BN mule, so I suspect yours was a cousin to mine being from Calgary.

Scotty

[Ed Storey]

Scotty:

Thank you for fishing out the 'needle in the haystack', the vehicle in question 74-09204 is a M151A2 with TOW and is in the CWM collection in Ottawa. It has recently been restored and is now on display in the Lebreton gallery. Here is an image of it in the 'shop' before going out on the floor.



I actually have a photoraph of 74-09207 that I took outside of the CANEX in CFB Wainwright during RV85.

[Ed Storey]

I guess the big question is, "How many M151A2s with TOW did the CF use?"

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by edstorey

I guess the big question is, "How many M151A2s with TOW did the CF use?"

That explains why I couldn't find any detailed info on it. Its a TOW MUTT. I'll go back and check the other M151A2 ECC's to see what I can find. Whats interesting is that in the EDR Viewer, that CFR was listed as a "Normal" M151A2 ECC. Makes me wonder if these were converted from normal 151s in Canada, or purchased from the US with the TOW system already mounted.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say there were not too many. Couple of dozen at most. I can check the Database for the number of Iltis that had the TOW. My gut instinct is that the Iltis TOW probably replaced the M151A2 TOW one for one. In all my time during the Iltis days, I rarely saw the TOW versions.

What I find interesting is that including the picture of that one from the museum, that is a total of 3 x TOW M151A2 that I have seen that are un-cut.

Steve H (a TOW version owner) and I were tossing around the idea that it seems a higher percentage of TOW versions survived un-cut, from what we suspect was due to them being around later than "normal" versions. Just a thought.

Scotty

[rob love]

There was an installation instruction for the tow launcher kit and the ammunition supp kit. This would lead me to believe that the Mutts were modded for TOW. As I recall, the TOW mutts were retained a bit longer in service waiting for the Iltis variant to be made up. I also believe they were primarily an Airborne asset. Around this neck of the woods, TOW was initially in the cargo hatch of the M113, and in 88 we went to the TOW under armor (TUA).

I have the data summary for the TOW kit and AMMO kit, but they do not give the total numbers, but rather just the total of 935 for all the MUTTs purchased.

[Scott Bentley]

Looking in the EDR Viewer, there were a grand total of 10 TOW Missile Iltis and 10 TOW Missile M151A2. They went surplus in late 88 to early 89.

Apparently there was a one and only Cable Layer M151A2 as well in Valcartier at some point also.

Bit of irony here though, the Serial Number and CFR for CWM's TOW MUTT and the one in the picture from RV doesn't show in the Database. Hmm.....

I'll keep digging when I get more time.

Scotty

[Craig S.]

Looking at the ECC 121411 for M-151A2 TOW Launcher's, it shows a total of 9 listed. I would guess there were more that may have "disappeared" when old CFR's became newer equipment. Ed's RV'85 pic of 1 PPCLI CFR#09207 is at the top of the listings. Cheers,

Craig

[Ed Storey]

Did Canada use the M151A2 TOW Ammo Carrier version? If we did use them, I had never seen one in use and consequently do not have a photo of one.

Thank you for the information you have found, I keep thinking we Canada used about 12 of the M151A2 with TOW, but I cannot confirm it.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by edstorey

Did Canada use the M151A2 TOW Ammo Carrier version? If we did use them, I had never seen one in use and consequently do not have a photo of one.

Thank you for the information you have found, I keep thinking we Canada used about 12 of the M151A2 with TOW, but I cannot confirm it.

Yes, a Missile Carrier Version was also listed with similar quantities. No pics i'm aware of.

Scotty

[servicepub (RIP)]

Here are the TOW M151's that were on DND's database CD they sent me. What is the "AKEE"? I assume that the "Carrier" is the ammo carrier.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

Apparently there was a one and only Cable Layer M151A2 as well in Valcartier at some point also.

My CD only shows one also.

the Serial Number and CFR for CWM's TOW MUTT and the one in the picture from RV doesn't show in the Database. Scotty

My CD doesn't show this one either.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by servicepub

What is the "AKEE"?

Usually the term used is IKEE, which stands for "Installation kit, electrical equipment". My bet would be the AKEE is "adapter kit, electrical equipment".


I am glad I happened on these old CFR number collections a year back. It sure brings us to a new level of knowledge on things as obscure as TOW missile Mutts.

[Scott Bentley]

I took a CFR and was promoted on Friday....

In addition to locking myself out of my car today, the numbers and info I posted up earlier was right out to lunch

I guess all that stuff they say is true.

Anyway, yes, as pointed out, 9 TOW Missile Launchers and 2 Missile Carriers. I suspect the CWM TOW MUTT may have been "written over". There were only 10 Iltis TOW Missile Launchers that I could find, so based on a 1 for 1, that seems to explain the TOW MUTT from the CWM we can't find.

Rob, yes for sure. All makes for interesting reading, especially the Cable Layer. I'd love to know what happened to it.

Ed, either way, you've got a rare beast salvaged there.

Anyone notice the difference of the Grill from the rest of the M151A2s? Mine has the "Furnace Filter", but those look like the entire Grill was modified/reinforced and the Slats removed. Interesting.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

I took a CFR and was promoted on Friday....

In addition to locking myself out of my car today, the numbers and info I posted up earlier was right out to lunch

I guess all that stuff they say is true.


Anyone notice the difference of the Grill from the rest of the M151A2s? Mine has the "Furnace Filter", but those look like the entire Grill was modified/reinforced and the Slats removed. Interesting.

You might as well buy a car with a GPS because I never met a commissioned officer yet that can read a map.

That grill is very odd. Reinforced all around the outer edges where the winter cover buttons should be. I wondered if it might be part of the Tow kit, but a google check of other tow mutts show regular grills.

Mutt parts were never particularly rare or expensive. Kind of have to wonder why someone went to all the trouble.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

You might as well buy a car with a GPS because I never met a commissioned officer yet that can read a map.

I once watched a Phase III Candidate almost corkscrew himself into the ground trying to orientate his map..... Point taken

Originally Posted by rob love

That grill is very odd. Reinforced all around the outer edges where the winter cover buttons should be. I wondered if it might be part of the Tow kit, but a google check of other tow mutts show regular grills.

Mutt parts were never particularly rare or expensive. Kind of have to wonder why someone went to all the trouble.

Funny thing is even the one in the pic from RV has the grill done too, so its definately not a one off. Kinda looks like the 202 Workshop Boys got carried away.... MUTT Grills are pretty flimsy, but doesn't seem to justify a total re-engineering. 6 Bolts, 6 Plugs and Bye Bye...

[rob love]

Originally Posted by armybuck041

I once watched a Phase III Candidate almost corkscrew himself into the ground trying to orientate his map..... Point taken

Like a doberman chasing his tail.....

[jim fraser (RIP)]

hi.looking at my mutt and it has rv 85 stencelled on the passenger side windshield.regards jim.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by rob love

You might as well buy a car with a GPS because I never met a commissioned officer yet that can read a map.

Generally speaking you shouldn't make generalities! I was a commissioned officer in the Reserves and I was also a champion Orienteer when in Cadets. I am sure we all know officers who have read the map upside down but I have also known an Armour crewman who thought that the brown lines on a map (the contour lines) were footpaths.

[rob love]

There is no greater pleasure to a platoon of mechanics than to be going over a cloverleaf on a main highway while watching the maint-O heading away into the horizon from the underpass away from the convoy. I swear they used to do these things just to raise our morale.

Sorry if I caused offense Clive, but as Scotty has pointed out, the deterioration is already occurring.

BTW Scotty, have you started shopping around for a sword yet? You can always go classy and get a 130 year old example from John Denner or the like.

[Craig S.]

Hi Ed -

Found the attached info on your CFR. Cheers,

Craig

[Scott Bentley]

Really quite strange....

It shows as a "Normal" M151A2 that belonged to 1 CMBG HQ and Sigs.

Makes me wonder if the Serial Number Plate got mixed up somewhere along the way.

When I initially looked up the Serial Number in the other EDR MSE Database, it came back with the "Normal" ECC, yet its clearly a TOW MUTT.

Hmm....

[rob love]

Perhaps the kit was added to the basic vehicle post-service. I recall a story in one of the EME journals about one of the base workshops rebuilding a MUTT for the CWM. It may have been Kingston or Trenton if IRCC. Maybe someone made a decision to dress it up a bit, as opposed to having just a basic MUTT. The same thing happened here. A couple MPs restored a basic M38A1CDN3 for the Shilo Museum, and turned it into a MP Jeep while they were at it.

[Ed Storey]

Thank you for the information, this is great. When I read what Craig had posted I began to wonder how an M151A2 listed by DND with 1HQandSigs could become a TOW vehicle. If there is an article about DND 'fixing up' a M151A2 for the CWM I would like to see it as I think it would clinch the mystery of this vehicle.

If it was 'made up' by DND, just goes to show how a goodwill jesture can really foul up a historical record.

[rob love]

I only have the odd copies of the digest around, but not this one. It would have been from the 2000 to 2003 time period. I remember it mentioning they had difficulty finding engine parts like gaskets, and had to go to US dealers to find them.

[Scott Bentley]

Nevertheless, its an interesting conclusion.

The fact that it was the subject of an EME Journal article makes it nostalgic, original TOW or not.

I'm still curious about that damn grill. Especially now that we know it was not an original CF TOW MUTT. I wonder if there are more like it out there.

I'm curious to know how many "as served" Cdn TOW M151A2s are left intact. I know of Steve H's, and another in Oshawa that was for sale which appeared to be a former TOW. Any others out there?