Anti Aircraft Information Required

[Keith Orpin]

The rebuild of my 1942 C30 LAAT is progressing at a steady rate, although I'm not promising when she will be finished. Running in parallel with her rebuild, is the question of markings. During the stripdown, markings were found showing that she was attached to the 6th Anti Aircraft Div. Through another website, I have managed to fiqure out that the 6th AA Div, were based in the Essex and Kent areas of England. I also have a list of Brigades and Rgts attached to the 6th AA div. What I am trying to do now, with hopefully the help of others, is to try and establish which airfields the LAA Rgt RA were attached too. As an example, I know that the 49th and 121st LAA Rgt RA, were based at airfields in Essex, but I don't know which airfields. Does anyone out there know how I can obtain this information, or help in any way.
Thanks
Keith

[Mark W. Tonner]

Keith;

Don't know if this helps or not, but in 1940, July-September, 6th A.A. Div (S.E. Counties) and 1st A.A. Div (London) were responsible for the defence of the airfields of No. 11 Group, Fighter Command. These Stations being:

- Tangmere
- Westhampnett
- Kenley
- Croydon
- Briggin Hill
- Gravesend
- Manston
- Hornchurch
- Rochford
- Northolt
- Heath Row
- North Weald
- Martlesham
- Stapleford Abbots
- Debden
- Castle Camps

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Keith Orpin
The rebuild of my 1942 C30 LAAT is progressing at a steady rate, although I'm not promising when she will be finished.

Anyone interested in seeing what Keith's C30 looks like, see the thread "30cwt Photos" on the Old Forum. Keep up the good work, Keith!

[Keith Orpin]

Hi Guys,
Mark, Thanks for the list of airfields, yes it does help. I noticed on another thread that you mention the Arm of Service markings. The other marking I came across on the rear body was the A of S marking, which was an 8" red /blue square with a number 6 on it. Now would this have anything to do with the 6th AA Brigade, which the 49th and 121 st LAA Regt RA were attached to, or is this just a coincidence ?
Hanno, thanks for the reminder of the pictures, I'll post some more shortly
Keith

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Keith Orpin "The other marking I came across on the rear body was the A of S marking, which was an 8" red /blue square with a number 6 on it. Now would this have anything to do with the 6th AA Brigade, which the 49th and 121 st LAA Regt RA were attached to, or is this just a coincidence ?"

Keith;

Probably, I'll look it up and get back to you shortly.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Keith;

I cannot say for sure which unit the '6' identifies. Did you say that during the stripdown of the vehicle, you found the 6th AA Div formation sign? A black and white target, with a red arrow through the bull, set on a black square. Example below.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Keith;

The Arm of Service Marking: white '6' on a red over blue square is definitely for a Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment. But whether it's for the 49th L.A.A. Regiment, R.A. or for the 121st L.A.A. Regiment, R.A., 6th A.A. Division, I haven't been able to determine.

You say that your rebuilding/restoring a 1942 C30 LAAT. Here is something that may help to identify it's markings:

49th L.A.A. Regiment, R.A. (TA), formed July 1940 - Home Forces, UK - July 1940 to July 1942, than transferred to 78th Infantry Division.

121st L.A.A. Regiment, R.A. (Leicestershire Regt)(TA), formed February 1942 from 44th (Leicestershire Regt) Searchlight Regiment, R.A. - Home Forces, UK - February 1942 to March 1944, than transferred to 2nd Army.

Still looking Keith.

Cheers

[Keith Orpin]

Hi Mark,
You're doing a great job on my behalf, please keep looking.Hopefully attached to this message, there are a couple of pictures showing the markings. Interestingly, the 6th AA marking you mentioned, shows the arrow pointing from 5 'o' clock to 11 'o' clock, the marking on the back of my body shows the arrow running from 7 'o' clock to 1 'o' clock. The only explanation I have for this is that some poor sqauddy reversed the stencil when it was applied. I'm going to check out the airfield listing you so kindly provided,I'll let you know what I find.
Cheers
Keith

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Keith;

Two books that may help to figure out which Regt defended which fields are:

HISTORY OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR, UNITED KINGDOM MILITARY SERIES: THE DEFENCE OF THE UNITED KINGDOM,
by Basil Collier, Published by H.M.S.O. Books, 1957, re-issue 1994.

HISTORY OF THE ROYAL REGIMENT OF ARTILLERY: ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY 1914-1955,
by Brigadier N.W. Routledge, Published by Brassey's, 1994.

Unfortunately I do not have either book in my collection, although they are both on my 'Wish List'.

Also, someone in the UK who may be able to help with the Arm of Service Markings used by the 49th LAA and 121st LAA Regt's, is Malcolm A. Bellis. He has written numerous booklets regarding the Orders of Battle and Organization and Markings of British and Commonwealth Forces 1939-1945 and beyond. Here is his mailing address, unfortunately I've misplaced his phone and fax numbers, but I'll see if I can't dig them up.

Malcolm A. Bellis
10 White Hart Lane
Wistaston, Crewe
Cheshire, CW2 8EX

I wonder how many extra duties the 'poor squaddie' did for reversing the stencil, odd though that it was never corrected?

You know Keith, I have a feeling that were going to find that the markings belong to the 121st LAA Regt.

Still looking.

Cheers

[Keith Orpin]

Hi Mark,
For some reason, the attachment did'nt seem to attach, I'll try again shortly. As for the squaddie,I guess it depends on how many other trucks he miss-marked! Your thoughts on her being attached to the 121st also makes sense, as I have come to the same conclusion. This is based on the fact that she was supplied in August 1942.I'll try and contact Malcolm Bellis, to see if he can shed any light on the subject.Whilst we are on the subject of markings, I've fiqured out how the Battery would have been shown,ie, a blue square with a small red square into one of the corners, to show which battery she was with, and then you have letters and numbers on the above blue square which give the Tractor Number, Gun Number and Company Number. Do you know how would she have been marked to show that she was in the 121st?. Would this have been a red over blue square with the number 47 on it?
Thanks
Keith

[Mark W. Tonner]

Keith Orpin wrote: "Would this have been a red over blue square with the number 47 on it?"

Hi Keith;

Regarding the '47', - No - '47' was the number used for the LAA Regt of an Infantry Division 43/44? onwards, I'll check for the exact date.

The '6' you found would be the unit identifier, in this case. Also, your on the right track concerning the Battery Quarters and Tractor/Gun Numbers.

Since it is only possible to post one image at a time here Keith, could you send me your e-mail address and I'll send you an example of the markings for an LAA Regt complete (including coloured images).

Haven't found Malcolm's numbers yet, still looking.

Cheers

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

How do you guys come up with such information? Note that Heath Row was designated circa 1944 as the next new London Airport, as Heathrow, and many is the time I went aircraft spotting there from 1966 to 1968ish...I used to live between the approaches to 28L and 28R. At Gatwick I saw a few C-47 RCAF aircraft, as well as C-130s. From memory they used to bring Canadian soldiers in from Germany, etc., and then they transferred to World Airways charter flights. The significance is that the C-47s still had the wartime RAF serials, similar to "KG 624" [can't remember the exact serials]..I have the original spotting books somewhere and I still cannot establish why the RCAF did not revert to the post-war numbering system as worn by the Hercs [two used to land at the same time...quite a novelty now]. It would be interesting to think that these C-47s had been Lend-Leased during the War and were still doing service in the late 1960's.

[Keith Orpin]

Hi David,
Thanks for the info about Heathrow, as you say it's amazing that though one enquiry, so much information is so forthcoming, Mark is doing a great job!.Historcally, I feel it's only right that if you spend years rebuilding a vehicle and you then as I have find any links to a vehicles past military history, it's worth persuing as far as one can go, to preserve their past. With so many like minded enthusiasts contacting and helping each other on this forum, it makes it all worth while.
Best Regards
Keith

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Keith;

Just a note, the markings on you LAAT are definitely post 1941. I had fogotten that prior to 1942, the Arm of Service Marking for AA Units within ADGB (Air Defence Great Britain) was divided vertically ie: red left, blue right, not horizontal.
1942 onwards - divided horizontal - red top, blue bottom.

Still looking.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Keith Orpin wrote "there are a couple of pictures showing the markings. Interestingly, the 6th AA marking you mentioned, shows the arrow pointing from 5 'o' clock to 11 'o' clock, the marking on the back of my body shows the arrow running from 7 'o' clock to 1 'o' clock. The only explanation I have for this is that some poor sqauddy reversed the stencil when it was applied."

Attached are Keith's pictures.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Keith;

Just a note, have found my references, the markings on your vehicle are post 1942. Will post what I found, once I've put my notes in order.

Cheers

[Keith Orpin]

Hi Mark,
You mentioned that the markings could be post 1942, this may be right as the vehicle was manufactured on 20/08/42, and according to David Haywards lastest post, ref contract deliveries for Oct 1942, she may not have entered service until late 42 or early 43.
Looking forward to your latest findings
Cheers
keith

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Keith;

Just a note, the markings on you LAAT are definitely post 1942. More to follow on this.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Keith;

This is what I've found so far.

Reference: Attached Image (6 AA Div Formation Sign Used has an example)

Fig. 1 - According to what I've found, from a War Office letter of 12 April, 1940 - AA Units within AA Command used a oval or ellipse AoS patch, divided vertically, with no Unit identifing number serial, starting in 1940.

Fig. 2 - According to the 1942 instructions, the only change was that the oval or ellipse AoS patch was divided horizontally, with still no Unit identifing number serial.

Fig. 3 - According to the 1943 instructions, only AA Units within AA Command Mobile Reserve were to carry Unit identifing serials, which were allotted by the G.O.C. C-in-C AA Command (after Nov 1943), also, the oval or ellipse AoS patch was still used (not changed to the square pattern used by the Field Army)

Fig. 4 - The markings found on the LAAT. I haven't found any reference for 1944, nor any reference to the Unit serial '6' yet, but the AoS patch and Unit serial could date from then.

That's about it for now Keith, still looking.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Keith;

Have found some new information and corrections to my last post regarding the markings used by AA Command Units (Home Forces).

Reference: Attached Image

Fig. 1 - As I stated in my earlier post, this is an example of how the Gun Tractors within a LAA Regt of the 6 AA Div would have been marked in regards to the Arm of Service (R.A.) and the Formation Sign (6 AA Div), up to Oct 1942.

As of October 1942, AA Command's three AA Corps and twelve AA Divisions were reorganized into seven AA Groups (both Corps and Div organizations being done away with).

Fig. 2 - From 1943 onwards, all AA Units within AA Command, used the AA Command Formation Sign, a black bow and arrow, aimed upwards, on a scarlet square, with the R.A. Arm of Service still being the horizontal oval or ellipse, with no Unit Serial Number on it.

Fig. 3 - As I stated in my earlier post, after Nov 1943, only those AA Units within AA Command Mobile Reserve were to carry Unit identifing serials, which were allotted by the G.O.C. C-in-C AA Command, the R.A. Arm of Service still being the horizontal oval or ellipse. Fig. 3 is an example only, of how the vehicles of one of the LAA Regts within AA Command Mobile Reserve would have been marked in regards to the R.A. Arm of Service, with the Unit's allotted Serial Number and the AA Command Formation Sign.

Now considering that you mentioned that your vehicle was manufactured on 20/08/42 and that she may not have entered service until late 42 or early 43 and taking into account, my above mentioned findings, this makes the markings you found on her a bit of a mystery, ie: the square R.A. AoS with the serial '6' number and the 6 AA Div Fmn Sign.

I still have not been able to find any other reference to Units under command of AA Command, having had used the square R.A. Arm of Service, has used by the Field Army. According to all the instructions I've read, Units of AA Command (Home Forces)used the oval or ellipse R.A. AoS throughout the war years.

Haven't given up yet, I love a good mystery, still looking.

Cheers