Dutch Vickers Model 1936 - Netherlands East Indies

[George Eller]

Dutch light tank - British built Vickers Model 1936 - known as "Dutchmen" to the British. Taken on parade at the Koningsplein in Batavia (Jakarta), Java 31 Aug 1941


http://www.overvalwagen.com/images/Dutch-tank-1.jpg
Edit: linked from Overvalwagen.com, was http://members.lycos.co.uk/gceller57...tch-tank-1.jpg

British built Vickers Model 1936
http://members.lycos.co.uk/gceller57...tch-tank-2.jpg



--------------------

IMAGES BELOW ARE FROM THE FOLLOWING WEBSITE:

Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies Armor Site

Vickers Model 1936
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/hol/Vickers1.jpg

Vickers Model 1936
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/hol/knilvick.jpg

Vickers Model 36 tanks followed by what appear to be Bren Carriers
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/hol/Parade.jpg

Vickers Light Amphibian Tank
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/h...AmphibTank.jpg

I have posted this at another website - Netherlands East Indies 1941-42 message boards. This is my first post here at MLU.

Nice Website.

Greetings,
George

[Hanno Spoelstra]

George,

First of all welcome to this forum! I hope you like what we're doing here, certainly the threads initiated by ericnuyt should be of interest to you.

Originally posted by George Eller
Vickers Model 36 tanks followed by what appear to be Bren Carriers

These are Vickers Utility Tractors, of which the KNIL had a number - see the thread "GM/Ford? based armoured vehicles of the Dutch East Indies" in which we briefly discussed them.

Regards,
Hanno
Marmon-Herrington Military Vehicles

[nuyt]

Welcome George,

Good to see you here as well...

If anybody is interested in further reading on the KNIL VCL tanks, read this article by Jacques Jost:

http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastin...rden_loyd.html

Besides the VCL's KNIL had originally ordered a substantial number of Vickers Command Tanks, armed with the 2pdr gun, tanks to be produced in Belgium. It did not materialize.
Here's a pic of a Vickers Command Tank (from David Fletcher: Mechanised Force, British tanks between the wars)

Enjoy
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Question: is this is Vickers Model 1936 too?

[George Eller]

Hi Guys,

Thanks Hanno and Eric for the welcome. This is a really interesting site. A great amount of detailed information and interesting and unusual images.

Eric, I have never seen that image of the Vickers command tank before. The two pounder at least could have given the KNIL armor some anti-tank capability. I liked those images that you posted on the Vickers tanks and Overvaalwagens taken by the Japanese. The one image of the overturned Vickers even appeared to show a crewman laying dead in the drivers compartment. It was interesting to see these vehicles from the perspective of the Japanese. Were these from Taki's Japanese Army website?

Hanno, I liked your Marmon-Herrington site and the images and information on the utility tractors. Some of the versions resembled Bren gun carriers. That image that you posted today looked like a captured Vickers Model 1936 being used by the Japanese.

I may post some more images this weekend. There is so much information here that is almost overwhelming. Great stuff.

Best Wishes,
George

[nuyt]

Hanno,
somehow I believe the pic you posted up here was shot in England. The tactical sign is unknown to me however...

BUt didnt Japan also order these tanks in the early thirties?

NUyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Thanks George & Nuyt.

So we have a Vickers Model 1936 possibly:
- captured by the Japanese;
- pictured in England.
Any other suggestions please?

Below follows another picture. Does this help in determining the location?

[nuyt]

These tanks were only supplied to NEI (the same six-sided turret), Latvia, Lithuania and China.
The Latvian order consisted of 12 mg-armed and 6 40mm gun tanks. Their mudguards were were a bit shorter than the NEI ones. Just like on you pics..

Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Nuyt,

These two pictures were offered on eBay (item number 3267951800 and 3655132855 respectively) by a seller specialised in "European & Russian photography, mainly from pre 1930s period". So Latvia seems very likely - thanks very much!

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Picture of the sole surviving Vickers "Dutchman" (as far as we know, that is!). It resides at the Bovington Tank Museum in the UK.
(Picture source: http://russiannavy.net/photos/Bovington/Between_Wars/)

[nuyt]

Hanno,
the camo on this one looks Japanese..
Would this one be a Japanese captured KNIL tank?
Do you know anything on the origin of the vehicle?
Greetings
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Would this one be a Japanese captured KNIL tank?
Do you know anything on the origin of the vehicle?

Nuyt, do you mean the surviving example at the Bovington Tank Museum in the UK? That was one of the Vickers tanks ordered by the KNIL which were kept in the UK to make up for BEF tank losses in France. It was used for training in the UK and ended up in the museum. It would not have left the UK in it's entire life.

H.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by George Eller
Vickers Model 1936


Vickers Model 36 tanks followed by what appear to be Bren Carriers


Vickers Light Amphibian Tank

Picture no 1: The man standing beside the tank is Corporal Pauw
Picture no 2: Photo taken at the great parade on Andir AFB (Bandoeng) in 1939. In front tank D 9800 followed in 2nd row by an amphibious + D 9801 + the second amphibious. Some sources label the light tank as M/34 and the amphipious as M/31. The two light tanks D 9800-9801 had 2 x 7,7 mm HMGs (aircooled), the series M/36 tanks had only 1 x HMG (Watercooled)
Picture 3: Photo from Tandjoeng Priok (Batavia) 1938. The man in the turret is most probably 1Lt Wulfhorst.

[nuyt]

Nuyt, do you mean the surviving example at the Bovington Tank Museum in the UK? That was one of the Vickers tanks ordered by the KNIL which were kept in the UK to make up for BEF tank losses in France. It was used for training in the UK and ended up in the museum. It would not have left the UK in it's entire life.

Yes, Hanno, thats the one! If this was a UK based tank than Bovington used the wrong camo. This camo is typical Japanese, I think. Unless, any British expert can confirm that this pattern and these colours were used in the UK during WW2?

Cheers
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Unless, any British expert can confirm that this pattern and these colours were used in the UK during WW2?

If I recall correctly, it was painted to represent the pre-war camo pattern as applied by the manufacturer for export purposes.

H.

[nuyt]

fair enough.
That makes sense. David Fletchers' Mechanised Force books shows several British interwar models in exotic colour schemes!

Greetings
Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by George Eller
Vickers Model 36 tanks followed by what appear to be Bren Carriers

The picture with VCL Tank nr D 9800 (Preanger District registration) is taken 22 July 1939 at Andir AFB (Bandoeng). That was the first larger scale parade made by the Proefadeling Vechtwagens (Tanks Trial Detachment) which in 1939 became Bataljon Wechtwagens (Tanks Btn) in Bandoeng.

This parade was held in occasion of LtGen Boestra handing over to LtGen Berenshot as C-in-C of the KNIL.

In front Tank n:o 1 (D 9800) with 2 x aircooled MGs Colt-Browning. In second row from left Amphibious Tank n:o 4 (D 9803), Tank n:o 2 (D 9801) and finally Amphibious Tank n:o 3 (D 9802) which had another armament of 1 x watercooled MG Vickers.

[nuyt]

what did I find on the Beeldbank:

A Vickers in TNI (Tentara Nasional INdonesia) service, 1946. Unknown location, but must have been Java.

Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
what did I find on the Beeldbank:

A Vickers in TNI (Tentara Nasional INdonesia) service, 1946. Unknown location, but must have been Java.

Thanks Nuyt, it is a Beauty!

But is it what we think? It is a VCL Tank and I agree that it is probably on Java.

There are - I suggest - two Japanese soldiers! (Japanese helmets, Japanese rifles, uniform style). And three Indonesians - armed with long rifles - but are they TNI or helping the Japanese?

The NEI Government used Japanese troops to mantain law and order from Aug 1945 and until the KNIL arrived - which took some time. I thus suggest that we see Japanese soldiers in service with the NEI "old regime".

The face of the tank driver is hardly visible. The tank commander - where is he? I think he was the one that took the picture.

So there are seven men celebrating something with this tank by making this photo and standing like triumphators.

Noone is dressed or equipped suitable to drive a tank, but we do not know what the driver and the potographer looks like. So:

1) These men have captured the tank?
2) The Japanese are handing over the tank to TNI?
3) These men have done some essential job together?
4) These men take a picture before going to action?

Wich Beeldbank - wich seekword - perhaps other pictures in the same series could leave a clue?

Stellan

[nuyt]

Hi Stellan, I think they are probably all TNI or otherwise Indonesian troops wearing Japanese uniforms.
The photograhper was probably part of the Dutch press corps.
Greetings
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by George Eller
Vickers Light Amphibian Tank

See http://henk.fox3000.com/kubinka.htm for pictures of a surviving Vickers Amphibian (probably of Chinese origin?)

H.

[MarkoZ]

Hi, This my first Post on what is an excellent site!. several years ago I was reading Churchills history of World War 2 and in particular the Section on the Invasion of Greece.

He made mention of the 'Tragicomical' 19th Motorised Infantry Division which had been formed from 2,000 2nd year Motor mechanical Students and went on to list its equipement.

He referred specifically to its armoured content which consisted of 24 Captured Italian L 3's and some 'Dutch Tanks'.

My view of this was that He was inferring that the British had supplied some Vickers light Tanks to the Greek Army!

I have never seen this refered to anywhere else, I do know that some 50 Bren gun carriers were supplied along with artillery.

The 'Dutchman' Tank was certainly available in 1941 as some had been retained by the British army for training purposes.

Can anyone on this Forum enlighten me please?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by MarkoZ
My view of this was that He was inferring that the British had supplied some Vickers light Tanks to the Greek Army!

MarkoZ, welcome to this forum!

The shipments of Vickers Carden Loyd light tanks destined for the Netherlands East Indies were retained by the British Goverment, in an act to overcome the severe losses of vehicles in France in May-June 1940. Therefore I think it is highly unlikely Vickers "Dutchman" tanks were shipped out of the UK. Unless the strategic situation of Greece was deemed more precarious than that of the UK itself, that is...

H.

[MarkoZ]

Hanno In April 1941 the British were on the Up! after very nearly totaly annihilating the Italians in North Africa, Churchill needed to bolster the Greeks in the Balkans.

Churchill also aided and abeted the coup detat in Yugoslavia.

57,577 men and about 100 tanks(inc 60 cruiser A10) were sent to the Balkans and the 12th 20th and 19th Greek divisions were put under British command.

The Dutchman tank would have been redundant by this time in the UK having been replaced by hundreds of Valentines,Matilda and Crusier tanks,It seems quite feasible that any remaining which were servicable could have been utillised.

The Greeks had actually ordered 14 Vickers six ton Tanks prior to the war commencing, but none had been delivered.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by MarkoZ
The Dutchman tank would have been redundant by this time in the UK having been replaced by hundreds of Valentines,Matilda and Crusier tanks,It seems quite feasible that any remaining which were servicable could have been utillised.

MarkoZ,

Sorry, I should have studied the Balkan theatre before posting a reply. You are absolutely correct, the Dutchman tank would have been redundant by this time in the UK and it could very well be true that any serviceable examples were among the 100 tanks shipped to the Balkans.

Question is: who knows more?
Perhaps T. Metsovitis can enlighten us?!?

Regards,
Hanno

[nuyt]

MarkoZ and Hanno, this might be interesting!
Yes, if they would have been sent there, someone should be in the know...

To be honest, the first time I read the post above about Churchill's remark about Dutch tanks I said to myself: Dutch tanks? maybe like in Dutch treat, like you can have your tank but bring your own armour and gun...!

[MarkoZ]

The only record I have at home of equipement shipped to Greece
by Britain is 24 Field Guns,12 Heavy Howitzers,24 2pdr A/t guns 40 AA Guns and 65 light and Medium Tanks (no doubt the A10's and some Light tank Mk4's these were used by the 3rd RTR)
Britain also sent 63 fighters and 46 Bombers(Gladiators,Hurricanes and Blenheims)

Interestingly the Gladiators were all second hand and some went to Greek Squadrons to replace their PZL Fighters.

Reference the 'Dutch' tanks comment and its meaning, Yes Churchill did love to use the English language!

Regards

Marko

[AKosion]

Originally posted by MarkoZ
Hi, This my first Post on what is an excellent site!. several years ago I was reading Churchills history of World War 2 and in particular the Section on the Invasion of Greece.
...
He referred specifically to its armoured content which consisted of 24 Captured Italian L 3's and some 'Dutch Tanks'.
My view of this was that He was inferring that the British had supplied some Vickers light Tanks to the Greek Army!

Indeed. At least two Dutchmen (T 16680 and -probably- 16703) were used by the 19th Motorised Division. If dear old Winston is right about the 24 L3s (how would he know such details?), and given that the Division had 27 tanks in total, that gives 3 Dutchmen. The Division also had 77 Universal Carriers, and apparently Morris Quads and some CMP trucks.

At the British Pathe website you can access a film (and corresponding stills) showing the arrival of some of that equipment in Greece. Film ID is 1637.25.

Apologies to Fyll for "stealing his thunder".

Best regards
Aris Kosionidis

[MarkoZ]

Thank You Aris, Mystery solved! It could well be that the 24 L3's were part pf a consignment of 'War Booty' shipped over from North Africa.

237 guns and 73 Tanks were catured after Sidi Barani in November 1940.

In January 1941 they captured 131 light Tanks, 460 guns and 460 trucks.

Later in January 1941 23 Medium tanks 208 guns and 200 trucks were captured at Tobruk.

Now the Medium tanks (M13's) were pressed into British service,

It was probably the case that some of the servisable L3's were shipped to Greece.

I think any L3's captured in Albania were pressed into use at the front.

Churchill was generally well informed due to an excellent secret service net work in that Part of the world, he was fully aware of the full strength and capabillity of the Greek and Yugoslav Army and the British Secret Service directly influenced the coup in Yugoslavia.

regards

Marko

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by AKosion
Indeed. At least two Dutchmen (T 16680 and -probably- 16703) were used by the 19th Motorised Division. If dear old Winston is right about the 24 L3s (how would he know such details?), and given that the Division had 27 tanks in total, that gives 3 Dutchmen.

Aris, thank you!
Because of the mention of WD census numbers, I presume there are photos available of these Dutchmen? If so, this Dutchman would love to see them!

Re. T 16680: picture below shows T16689 in Britsh use.

Thanks & regards,
Hanno