Help with Carrier ID

[Lynn Eades]

In Nigel Watsons first book ,on page 210. There is a list of engines used in universal carriers. (this is where I went wrong)
All the Canadian carriers(those with "*")are listed with the Canadian built engines (CO1UC-6097)and identified as No.3's.
There is no listing for a Canadian No1 or a No.2.
According to this page of Nigels book, ALL the Canadian universals are No.3's.
I now see on page 217 a contradictory item where the CO1UC -6097 ANH motor is listed as an 85 H.P. engine. As the 85H.P. engine is a No.2 (see photo)
From Dr. Greggs book, and various other material I agree with Rob ,and concede, that your Carrier Ron, is a; No.2 MkII*

[Neil Ashley]

Ron

I have consulted up my two sources of information namely Nigels book and and a very badly reproduced list of Carrier Contracts which the person who gave it to me thought came from Bovington.

On the Bovington list serial numbers T178800-T181058 are allocated to contract S/M 1349 which is listed as being for Windsor Carriers. Having said this all the contracts listed immeadiately prior to this cover both Windsors and Universals so perhaps a mistake was made on the list..

Unfortunately in Nigels book Contract S/M 1349 is listed as having serial numbers T28149?-T286848. I could not immeadiately see your number in Nigels book but I assume you have a copy to check.

Others may be able to comment on the first contract but the number on my own Mk2* also falls into a grey area.
Bovington do have some Canadian Contract Cards but I have never checked for Carriers.

I live in Trowbridge as well not Wilton. I am busy these days instructing in the Army Cadet Force having come out of the TA aftter 18 years. About a third of the detachment come from Poland so its getting more like WW2 everyday

[Ron Pier]

Thanks for that Neil and sorry for relocating you. I will get down to some research soon.

Ron

[Nigel Watson]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

In Nigel Watsons first book ,on page 210. There is a list of engines used in universal carriers. (this is where I went wrong)
All the Canadian carriers(those with "*")are listed with the Canadian built engines (CO1UC-6097)and identified as No.3's.
There is no listing for a Canadian No1 or a No.2.
According to this page of Nigels book, ALL the Canadian universals are No.3's.
I now see on page 217 a contradictory item where the CO1UC -6097 ANH motor is listed as an 85 H.P. engine. As the 85H.P. engine is a No.2 (see photo)
From Dr. Greggs book, and various other material I agree with Rob ,and concede, that your Carrier Ron, is a; No.2 MkII*

All Parts Manuals,Documents & Research Material I have show that Carriers fitted with the C01UC-6000 or 6097 unit, have the designation of No.3 prefixing the Carrier Mark. All this means is that the Canadian built carrier was factory fitted with the Canadian built engine. It is highly possible for our carriers to be fitted with an American or English unit at some time after, most likely due to failures and breakdown. This would of course have changed the nomenclature of the carrier. Engine id should determine this Ron.

To clarify another point, or two! for those who have been unable to get a glimpse of my books!; No.1 is an engine of English origin fitted with American or Lucas electrical equipment and 18mm sparkies; No.2 and 2A are of American origin with 14mm sparkies; No.3 is an engine of Canadian origin with 14mm sparkies. All are 85hp.

Lynn I don't follow where you say there is a contradictory item as the units on page 210 are all 85hp and on page 217 it shows also as 85hp! The CO1UC -6097 ANH motor was an 85hp unit that superceded the C01UC-6000-CN and -AN motors, and was itself superceded by the C01UC-6097 unit.

Does this all make sense guys, or have I misunderstood the engine problem?
No doubt I'll find out soon enough!

Nigel

[Lynn Eades]

If you go back to my last post, and look at the image. It is from the Chilwell catalogue No.63/63 Jan 43.
Of course this workshop manual is for British carriers.
Your material on page 210, lists all Canadian Mk1 and Mk2 universals, as No.3.I believe they No2
I am confused. From the British manuals, a No3 is 95 hp, but you are telling me that a No.3 means a Canadian built engine of 85hp. ...... No bloody wonder people get confused!
Nigel, you've done a lot of research. Can you clarify?

[Neil Ashley]

Nigel

Presumably you cannot add any further clarification to the serial number question?

[Nigel Watson]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

If you go back to my last post, and look at the image. It is from the Chilwell catalogue No.63/63 Jan 43.
Of course this workshop manual is for British carriers.
Your material on page 210, lists all Canadian Mk1 and Mk2 universals, as No.3.I believe they No2
I am confused. From the British manuals, a No3 is 95 hp, but you are telling me that a No.3 means a Canadian built engine of 85hp. ...... No bloody wonder people get confused!
Nigel, you've done a lot of research. Can you clarify?

Hi Lynn
The Illustrated Parts List for Universal Carriers dated 1945 Chilwell 63/76 under Identification of Vehicle Types show all No. 3 Carriers across the whole range of carriers as the C01UC-6097 unit. All the engines mentioned in this Parts List under Identification of Engine Types are 85bhp with the C01UC-6097 being fitted as the standard engine to MkI*, 3"Mortar and 2prAT (presumably because these were all based on the MkI*. Could it be a misprint? Is your manual British or British but for Australian/New Zealand use perhaps? It is for carriers and not trucks etc? More research called for I reckon.

Anyone else have any observations/thoughts?

Neil sorry still can't crack the Serial No. to Hull Numbers to WD Number link. Still hopeful to come across something.

Nigel

[Neil Ashley]

It was the conflicting T numbers for contract S/M1349 which I was wondering about.

I don't know what source you used for your book.

"On the Bovington list serial numbers T178800-T181058 are allocated to contract S/M 1349 which is listed as being for Windsor Carriers. Having said this all the contracts listed immeadiately prior to this cover both Windsors and Universals so perhaps a mistake was made on the list".

"Unfortunately in Nigels book Contract S/M 1349 is listed as having serial numbers T28149?-T286848. I could not immeadiately see your number in Nigels book but I assume you have a copy to check".

[Nigel Watson]

At the back of my mind I knew I had seen something about a No.2 MkII* and as I was looking at Volume 2, there it was a carrier id plate with Universal Carrier No.2 MkII*. Assuming this was fixed to a carrier and not a mock up, Canada produced carriers fitted with the American made V8. Having just found that I came across my reference for engine types. Neither of these contradict each other but simply say Canada produced carriers fitted with Canadian made V8s as well as American and hence the Carriers Nomenclature altered. England did the same so Ron if your MkII* has an American V8 you can call it a No.2 MkII* if you like!!!!

Nigel

[Nigel Watson]

Originally Posted by Neil Ashley

It was the conflicting T numbers for contract S/M1349 which I was wondering about.

I don't know what source you used for your book.

"On the Bovington list serial numbers T178800-T181058 are allocated to contract S/M 1349 which is listed as being for Windsor Carriers. Having said this all the contracts listed immeadiately prior to this cover both Windsors and Universals so perhaps a mistake was made on the list".

"Unfortunately in Nigels book Contract S/M 1349 is listed as having serial numbers T28149?-T286848. I could not immeadiately see your number in Nigels book but I assume you have a copy to check".

Hi Neil
My source for the WD Nos and subsequent Contract Nos. come from a Bovington Document entitled Schedule of Allocation of WD Numbers to AFV Contracts by Chilwell dated August 1944 Chilwell Ref: 215.14. Which Bovington List do you refer to?

What is interesting is that it states T178800-183799 was for Universal Carriers to Contract S/M 1349 placed with Loyd! I have a note to say that this Contract was originally placed with Ford and then changed to Loyd (Can't find the source of the note at the moment). However CT179405 is a Canadian built Carrier with Serial No. 24753 and Upper Hull 179405? and Lower Hull 23773 (Again I have it as a note against this Contract but can't find its source either. Belongs to someone we know I feel! Anyone?). I wonder if a certain amount were produced by Ford before the Contract was placed with Loyd?

The reason you couldn't find the numbers in my book is most likely because you were looking under Commonwealth Production. They are under UK Production because of the Contract being placed with Loyd latterly.

We'll all sort this out one way or another.

Nigel

[Ledsel]

Mine is a No.2 MKII* and its original. BUT I don't know if it has a Yankie engine and I can't look because it's in the shed at the farm. I don't think it says made in Canada on the head.