Post-War British Ram Kangaroo Question

[Jason Ginn]

I have attached the document I was referring to in my previous post. I believe Don Dingwall found it sand has passed it on to a few other folks.

You can see that on 28 July 1945 there were 8 Ram I and 2 Ram II ARV's held in Canadian stocks.

The same document shows that 28 Ram I and 12 Ram II ARV's had been previously transferred to the British.

Totals are:

Ram I ARV: qty.36
Ram II ARV: qty.14
Grand total 50

This list shows a total of 40 Mark I tanks but only 36 of these configured as ARV's. 1 is listed as salvage and 3 remain as cruisers. This 1945 document agrees with the Clive's detailed list on RamTank which contains records for 36 Ram Mark I ARV's held in Canadian stocks in January 1944. It gets interesting when you look a the details of the Ram II ARV's in Clives List. There are 15 in total, 14 of these are in Canadian Stocks as of January 1944 but the 15th, which is very definetly a ARV Mark II with Winch, (CT-159854) has the following entry:

"Jan 1944, shown as Struck Off Strength to the British delivered to 13 AFV Depot, Kegworth
Oct 1944, shown as Struck off Strength to British

KT, date unknown, shown as a Cruiser held by C Sqdn, 12 CAR (TRR) and named "Canadian"
KT, date unknown, shown as an ARV held by 12 CAR (TRR) and named "Canadian" "

I re-calculated the British census number block for the ARV's and, if the numbers are inclusive, i missed one. The new quantity should be:

Ram ARVs (Mk II) - Qty. 48 (or 49)

72 ZR 20 - 72 ZR 56 (or 57) qty. 37 (or 38)
23 ZV 72 - 23 ZV 82 qty. 11

This shows as discrepancy of 1 or 2 ARV's of all marks (depending on the census numbers) between 1946 and 1947.

Hanno mentions on the Sherman Register that the Netherlands acquired 2 Ram I's in 1946. Could these be the unaccounted for ARV's? It would be odd that of all the "A" vehicles in the Netherlands the Dutch would request (or accept) two obsolete 2 pdr equipped gun tanks when they were obviously after 75mm or greater equipped AFV's. If this were the case it would account for all Ram ARV's on the 1945 list.

Brian Baxter's book " Breakdown - A History of Recovery Vehicles in the British Army" states that the ARV Mark I was developed by the Experimental Recovery Section of the Director of Mechanical Maintenance in early 1942 at Arborfield. The ARV Mark I was envisioned to be built on each major AFV platform in use at the time.The Churchill was the first in use but some designs were discarded as unsuitable. Eventually the Grant, Ram, Sherman, Cromwell, Centaur and Cavalier were accepted and manufactured As ARV Mark I's. The Ram ARV Mark I was slightly different from the other's in that it retained its turret and was developed at Arborfield in co-operation with the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps.

On p. 49 Baxter states that the winch equipped ARV Mk. II was developed in 1943 by the Experimental Recovery Section in the UK for three AFV platforms only. These were the Sherman, Churchill and Ram. Apparently the Ram was intended for use by Canadian units but was built to a common design. He goes on to state that 500 ARV Mark II's were ordered but only pilot models and a very few REME conversions were actually built before wars end.

On p. 74 he states that the Ram ARV Mark I was considered for issue to SP regiments of the Royal Artillery in 1954. This was apparently due to a shortage of Mark II ARV's in the post-war years.

I had always thought that the ARV Mark I and Mark II nomenclature referred to the variant of Ram tank but it appears that the designation refers specifically to the variant of recovery equipment fitted to a number of different AFV platforms, e.g. The Churchill ARV Mark I was built using Mark I and II infantry tanks as platforms.

It is interesting that the Ram ARV stayed in Royal Army stores as late as the mid 1950's.

I guess the question is were the Canadian ARV numbers based on the platform used for the conversion or the model of ARV created? It appears that 36 Ram Mark I cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration and 14 Ram Mark II cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration.

The photographic evidence of CT-159854 confirms that it is a Ram Mark II cruiser that has been converted to a ARV Mark II (with winch) but this may be the pilot model for the Mark II conversion.

It looks as though we have 51 ARV conversions of the Ram recorded. Possibly 50 ARV Mark 1's and 1 confirmed ARV Mark II.

Hope this helps,

J

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Jason,

Interesting thread you have started here!

1)

Originally Posted by Jason Ginn

I have attached the document I was referring to in my previous post. I believe Don Dingwall found it sand has passed it on to a few other folks.

Correct, and I shared it with the forum members in 2007:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

the official Ram tank holding listings only mention Gun Towers, Ammunition Carriers, Personnel Carriers and Wasp equipped turretless Rams.

Follow the link to see scans of the entire listings.

2)

This 1945 document agrees with the Clive's detailed list on RamTank

Correct again, as Clive's list was based on the 1945 Ram tank holding listings.

3)

Hanno mentions on the Sherman Register that the Netherlands acquired 2 Ram I's in 1946. Could these be the unaccounted for ARV's? It would be odd that of all the "A" vehicles in the Netherlands the Dutch would request (or accept) two obsolete 2 pdr equipped gun tanks when they were obviously after 75mm or greater equipped AFV's. If this were the case it would account for all Ram ARV's on the 1945 list.

Indeed at least one of the Rams in Netherlands Army stocks was a Ram I ARV I - we know for sure as the delapitated remains of one have been preserved. It was about the be scrapped after serving as a range target; luckily I was just in time to point out its significance so it was set apart from the other wrecks which were scrapped.

4)

I guess the question is were the Canadian ARV numbers based on the platform used for the conversion or the model of ARV created? It appears that 36 Ram Mark I cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration and 14 Ram Mark II cruisers were converted to ARV Mark I configuration.

The answer is that the Mk.'s designated the type of ARV, not the type of gun tank it was converted from.
So the ARV I was the basic recovery vehicle, indeed the Ram ARV I was an exception as all the other ARV I's shedded their turret.
The ARV II (see attached pics) was the proper recovery vehicle with a winch and a fixed, heavily armoured superstructure added.
Either type or ARV could be converted from either type of gun tank. It is important to differentiate between the gun types and the manufacturing details. Often features like the early suspension bogies with the centre top roller, hull side doors, auxiliary machine-gun turret etc, are associated with the Ram Mk.I. Untrue, the Ram Mk.I was fitted with a 2-pdr gun, while the Mk.II was fitted with a 6-pdr. gun. Must remind myself to send Clive that list of Ram manufacturing changes for inclusion on his website, as they clearly show those changes were much more gradual than the change from 2- to 6-pdr gun which led to the change in designation.

Hope this helps,
Hanno

[Roger Lucy]

This is very interesting and useful.The file at LAC on Recovery Tanks has weekly returns on which tanks were sent to Wingets for modification, which ones were still there and which ones had been delivered. It's out for copying right now but when it's back I can retrieve it and determine how many Ram Is were in fact converted.

The work to modify the Rams as ARVs began in May, 1943 and was to be completed at the end of July, however due to a shortage of many of the required parts and tools,the last converted Rams were not delivered until February 1944, by which time Canadian Armoured units were being equipped with Sherman III and Sherman V ARVs. The original intent was to convert 78 Rams including all 40 Ram Is, the remainder being made up by early Ram IIs with the sponson doors. With the change of policy to equip armoured regiments with Sherman ARVs, Wingets was advised on 16 July to cease conversions after the 50th tank. i.e 38 Ram Is (of the other two, one was listed as derelict and the other had been earmarked for conversion as an AVRE) and 12 Ram IIs.

The vehicles were delivered to Wingets stripped of their armament and traverse mechanism and all equipment. Modifications at Wingets comprised removing the turret basket, and installing: bronze plates to secure the turret, a mantlet plug and dummy armament, stowage bins on the hull rear to hold spare parts, a dismountable jib with stowage brackets, a winch, a cable reel, a rear towing attachment and a Hollybone-drawbar. They were based on a Grant from the REME AFV Experimnetal Wing at Arborfield whose ability to haul a Ram through a muddy field were successfully demonstrated to 4 and 5 CAD in October 1942. In December 5 CAD had Grant T24594, converted along the same lines. Originally CMHQ planned to covert Grants into ARVs but in March 1943, it was decided to use early Rams instead.

The Ram ARV II CT159854 in the photo (and its also in Clive's register) is very late production and Clive's register shows it being transferred to the British in January 1944. Is it possible it was converted under British auspices, not Canadian, in which case all Canadian conversions were to ARV I configuration?

Roger Lucy

[Mark W. Tonner]

1. - in all the Canadian Army Overseas converted 52 Rams to ARVs (50 Ram ARV I based on 35x Ram Mk I and 15x Ram Mk II = 50 Ram ARV I plus 1x Ram ARV I pilot and 1x Ram ARV II pilot = 2 pilots)(50 + 2 = 52 Rams to ARVs)). Originally (March 1943) the Canadian Army Overseas required 126 Ram ARVs, but subsequently this requirement was reduced to 78 (April 1943) and after the decision was made in the summer of 1943 that Canadian armoured brigades would be equipped with M4A2 (Sherman III) and M4A4 (Sherman V) tanks, the requirement was dropped to 40 (plus a reserve of 10) and production of the Ram ARV I was ceased with completion of the 50th vehicle. The only Ram ARV II produced by the Canadian Army Overseas was the Ram ARV II pilot which was based on Cruiser Tank, Ram Mk II - CT39859. (Source: my research for the forthcoming Service Publication Weapons of War series title The ARV in Canadian Service)

2. - Cruiser Tank, Ram Mk II - CT159854 was indeed Struck Off Strength to the British in Jan 1944 and by 31 May 1945 under the WD number of 159854 had been converted as the pilot ARV II by the British. In photos this shows as RECT (Recovery Tank) 159854. Also, as/at 31 May 1945, due shortages in British stocks of the Sherman, an order was placed to have 100 Ram Mk II tanks (out of their stock) converted into ARV II (based on the pilot model 159854)(Source: page 20 - Policy and Progress Reports of the Directorate of Royal Armoured Corps, War Office, dated 30 June 1945). This order was subsequently cancelled in October 1945.

[Roddy de Normann]

Good Morning to all....

Some infor ref 159854

CT. 159854/REC 159854 - Ram IID & ARV

13 Tp, C Sqn, 12th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Three Rivers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

'COBAULT' while a gun tk with 12 CAR

- Mar 43 - Worthing, UK. Veh with 12 CAR. Internet pic via 'Armoured Acorn' -

- Veh later converted to ARV - Pic 'REC2 - 04' via Paul Roberts Archive

- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

Hope this is of interest

Roddy

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Roddy de Normann

Good Morning to all....

Some infor ref 159854

CT. 159854/REC 159854 - Ram IID & ARV

13 Tp, C Sqn, 12th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Three Rivers Regiment), Central Canadian Stocks & Central British Stocks

'COBAULT' while a gun tk with 12 CAR

- Mar 43 - Worthing, UK. Veh with 12 CAR. Internet pic via 'Armoured Acorn' -

- Veh later converted to ARV - Pic 'REC2 - 04' via Paul Roberts Archive

- 1944/45 - Veh struck off strength Canadian Central Stocks to British Stocks - Canadian Archives

Hope this is of interest

Roddy

Attached is a bad quality picture of Ram ARV II RECT 159854.

Clive Law's website Ramtank.ca is sorely missed...

Ram ARV II.jpg

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Clive Law's website Ramtank.ca is sorely missed...

Nothing on the internet is ever really gone.

Ramtank.ca

Cheers,
Dan.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

Nothing on the internet is ever really gone. Ramtank.ca

Thanks Dan, of course!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

1. - in all the Canadian Army Overseas converted 52 Rams to ARVs (50 Ram ARV I based on 35x Ram Mk I and 15x Ram Mk II = 50 Ram ARV I plus 1x Ram ARV I pilot and 1x Ram ARV II pilot = 2 pilots)(50 + 2 = 52 Rams to ARVs)). Originally (March 1943) the Canadian Army Overseas required 126 Ram ARVs, but subsequently this requirement was reduced to 78 (April 1943) and after the decision was made in the summer of 1943 that Canadian armoured brigades would be equipped with M4A2 (Sherman III) and M4A4 (Sherman V) tanks, the requirement was dropped to 40 (plus a reserve of 10) and production of the Ram ARV I was ceased with completion of the 50th vehicle. The only Ram ARV II produced by the Canadian Army Overseas was the Ram ARV II pilot which was based on Cruiser Tank, Ram Mk II - CT39859. (Source: my research for the forthcoming Service Publication Weapons of War series title The ARV in Canadian Service)

2. - Cruiser Tank, Ram Mk II - CT159854 was indeed Struck Off Strength to the British in Jan 1944 and by 31 May 1945 under the WD number of 159854 had been converted as the pilot ARV II by the British. In photos this shows as RECT (Recovery Tank) 159854. Also, as/at 31 May 1945, due shortages in British stocks of the Sherman, an order was placed to have 100 Ram Mk II tanks (out of their stock) converted into ARV II (based on the pilot model 159854)(Source: page 20 - Policy and Progress Reports of the Directorate of Royal Armoured Corps, War Office, dated 30 June 1945). This order was subsequently cancelled in October 1945.

Recently, Mark Tonner wrote the article "The Second World War Armoured Recovery Vehicle in Canadian Service".

It goes attached and I recommend reading it: ARV in Cdn Svc - 26 March 2020.pdf