DND Repossession(Rant )

[peter simundson]

a great reply which makes sense.
I wouldn't doubt this could also be used as an excuse to have equipment returned if they couldn't find a good reason otherwise.

PS

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by peter simundson

a great reply which makes sense.
I wouldn't doubt this could also be used as an excuse to have equipment returned if they couldn't find a good reason otherwise. PS

I purposely stayed out of this "debate" as it could have an impact on the type of work I do (when contracted...). But now, I can't resist since Clive brought up ITAR.

Two things strike me - first, the use of the word "loan" and the people who are surprised when the loan is called in. Leaving that word aside, the second issue is that magic abbreviation ITAR. ITAR trumps loans of any nature and is not a battle the little guy can win. You are dealing with the force of law of a superpower that has the balls to back up its legislation - even in a foreign land (read Canada).

Dealing with ITAR issues raises a lot of confusion, and it keeps lawyers busy. This wonderful "device" was put in place partially to make sure that allies who use US kit do not dispose of it in such a way that the kit ends up being used by US enemies. Just imagine the looks on the faces of US troops when they look up and see US made armoured vehicles in the service of their enemy... If you think it couldn't happen, think again. I am sure others on this forum can cite an example or two. The US and Cdn governments take ITAR seriously and there is no wiggle room in my experience.

I am of the opinion that you would have a better chance of ramming a stick of butter up a wolverine's arse with a red hot poker, whilst naked than fighting an ITAR issue.

[Grant Bowker]

When I saw that DND was starting action to dispose of the M113 series I asked a contact about how/whether I could acquire a set of the manuals for the M113. I thought that if they were disposing of the vehicles, they shouldn't need the manuals so it should be a perfect oportunity to get a set of the Canadian (if different from US) manuals for the hardware. I was told that ITAR extended to manuals so I would be out of luck. The person who told me this rarely mixes fact with supposition, so I accept the statement as being an official (though not direct) pronouncement.
The odd part of this is that M113 manuals (US version) seem to be readily available on eBay. On one hand they are a controlled item, on the other they are for open distribution (not free, but not expensive)

[Lynn Eades]

I have heard on the news here that the ANZAC parade in Adelaide will not be allowing Military vehicles, this year, for the first time. The news reader cited "security issues" as the reason.

[lynx42]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

I have heard on the news here that the ANZAC parade in Adelaide will not be allowing Military vehicles, this year, for the first time. The news reader cited "security issues" as the reason.

Lynn, More information please. I haven't heard of that decision.
I have been supplying ex-military vehicles for country Victorian ANZAC DAY parades for the past 24 years. I arrange it for 5 different towns in my area. So I would like more information.
I also belong to the Wartime Vehicle Conservation Group of SA Inc., the Victorian Military Vehicle Corps Inc. and am President of the Khaki Vehicle Enthusiasts Inc.
Thanks Rick

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

I have heard on the news here that the ANZAC parade in Adelaide will not be allowing Military vehicles, this year, for the first time. The news reader cited "security issues" as the reason.

We're really getting off topic now, but.........

It's actually the Army which will be withholding their vehicles for OH&S reasons. Private vehicles are welcomed by the RSL. See the article HERE.

[Tony Smith]

First the Army pulls out for Health and Safety liability reasons, and now This happens. I don't know more regarding the circumstances of this incident, but it has reached front page news and I would hazard that it may very well sound the death knell in Australia for vintage vehicles in Anzac parades, or at the very least exhorbitant Liability Insurance premiums.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

When I saw that DND was starting action to dispose of the M113 series I asked a contact about how/whether I could acquire a set of the manuals for the M113. I thought that if they were disposing of the vehicles, they shouldn't need the manuals so it should be a perfect oportunity to get a set of the Canadian (if different from US) manuals for the hardware. I was told that ITAR extended to manuals so I would be out of luck. The person who told me this rarely mixes fact with supposition, so I accept the statement as being an official (though not direct) pronouncement.
The odd part of this is that M113 manuals (US version) seem to be readily available on eBay. On one hand they are a controlled item, on the other they are for open distribution (not free, but not expensive)

In a government-world-of-its-own kind of way this makes sense as the ITAR only controls the export and not the (US) domestic ownership or transfer. Other domestic US agencies may have their own controls over some military goods, i.e., mortars and artillery for example which are classed as destructive devices by the ATF. That said, e-bay sellers who ship the manual out of the States are in violation of the US law.
Clive

[Lynn Eades]

How far back does this go? Does this apply to parts and manuals for a WWII jeep or Dodge?

[RHClarke]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ms_Regulations

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

When I saw that DND was starting action to dispose of the M113 series I asked a contact about how/whether I could acquire a set of the manuals for the M113.

I was told that ITAR extended to manuals so I would be out of luck.

The odd part of this is that M113 manuals (US version) seem to be readily available on eBay. On one hand they are a controlled item, on the other they are for open distribution (not free, but not expensive)

The Actual US Legislation details the items that are covered. Clause 126.5 details that there are exemptions for Canada End-Users (only) for unclassified items. If the manuals are classified (written on the cover) then they require an EUC to export. However, if the manuals are a Canadian published version applicable to the Canadian variants, I'm doubtful that ITAR would apply within Canadian borders.

Lynn, although the Act was revised in 1992, there is no mention in the act of age or date of manufacture of the items concerned, or an exemption for a particular cut-off date. Makes sense, as a 1941 made M2 Browning .50 cal would be just as critical as a 1991 made version.