Help with Canadian Carrier Markings

[Paul Butler]

Hi

My name is Paul Butler and I am a new member of your Forum.

I am currently restoring a Canadian Carrier Serial Number TL230F date of manufacture March 1941.

The carrier has the remains of some markings on the front, one of which I have been unable to identify. I attach some photos to help.

The marking in question is the 159 in white backed with green and blue. As far as I can tell it refers to a Reconnaissance Regiment and the white bar beneath suggests an HQ or command vehicle.

Can anyone help me please?

Many thanks

Paul

[RichardT10829]

Hi there Paul, welcome to the family, the serial number you quoted, where was it located ? the lower hull number should be located on the passenger side of the vehicle on the rear end...its on the angle bar that holds the rear armour in place over the nearside track guard.

you have joined a great group of people with a wealth of knowlege.....looks like with your carrier we must have just about a full carrier platoon in the UK now guys.

can you tell us a bit about how you came to find this particular carrier ?

Cheers and once again Welcome


Richie

[Lynn Eades]

TL230 F sounds like a part number. Where exactly is the number on the carrier? Can you post pictures of the inside, and inside rear?
And yes welcome aboard! This is a terminal disease and you have just entered a rehab program. ( you are now titled "Registered user" as are most of us here)
Lynn.

[Paul Butler]

Thanks for the welcome.

The serial number quoted is that on the brass plate on the O/S front track guard. I attach a photo, quality not good I'm afraid , I will try again in due course. Also attached some further pictures of the carrier. As yet I have found no serial number on the hull.

I don't have much history on it except I bought it 4 years ago from a collector local to me. He in turn had imported it from one of the Scandinavian countries where it had been used by a logging company to tow away cut down trees.

Paul

[eddy8men]

hi paul
i'm restoring a mk1* also and you're more than welcome to come up and check mine over i'm having the radiator armour made, if you like i'll get 2 sets knocked up and you can have 1, i could sort you out a few wheels as well as other bits and bobs just let me know

eddy

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Paul,

First of all, welcome to MLU! You'll never find a better group online than here!

Your green/blue "159" suggests a regiment in your own 79th Armoured Division. I don't know which one, but I CAN tell you 1CACR were "157" and the British "APCR" were "158". One of us here will no doubt be able to enlighten you further, but I'm pretty sure this was a Canadian carrier in British service (not uncommon).

Geoff

[RichardT10829]

this would fit in with it appearing to be an early Mk1 as the Canadian government were making carriers for british contracts early on in the war...Nigel Watson would be able to give the diffinitive answer. it does appear to have the british pattern lamps on rather than the canadian ones....but then again these may be aftermarket items... nice carrier though.

I have schematics for the side armour and center bulkhead and front armour... plus a load of other drawings etc.


also have a gunners side armour sheet already cut which is spare.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

it does appear to have the british pattern lamps on rather than the canadian ones....but then again these may be aftermarket items... nice carrier though.
.

Early Canadian carriers had Lucas lamps like this.

[eddy8men]

my carrier has the same lamps

eddy

[Phill]

Paul,
Is that an air filter for the carburetor I see in the last picture? I'm trying to find some dimensions for the early bellows one. Could you post some more pictures of the engine area? Phil

[RichardT10829]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Early Canadian carriers had Lucas lamps like this.

i know buddy they were made to british specs what i was getting at was just because they are there now does not mean that they were there when it left the factory if you catch me drift...

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Paul;

In regards to the serial '159' on the Arm of Service marking you are asking about, is it possible that the serial (or number) on this marking is '459'?

Cheers

[Lynn Eades]

Canada built carriers for the U.K. using many parts sent from the U.K. specifically for that purpose. This included most of the electrical components.

[RichardT10829]

I can feel your pain when it comes time to remove the armour remnants.....i used a thin slitting disc and took the heads off the rivets from the inside then used an air hammer with a pick and knocked them out from the inside.... i used a large bolster chissle beteen the armour and the angle bar to put preasure on the plate.....when they let go they do so with a bang...... the more stubborn rivets can be blown out with a oxy torch from the outside. either way get the first aid kit to standby....i finished with some slashed hands....and thanks to my pal Phil i had a large crowbar smashed into my face.....gotta love ya friends har har har.......its best to do the job with a pal...Fraz and I cleared the remains off mine in a day or two....

PS i prefer the lucas lamps they look much nicer buddy.

I cant wait to see this one progress !

[Kirk Armitage]

Nice to see that serial number [TL 230F] 3 , 1941, the plate on my carrier [TL13F] 3 , 1941 and a photo stat the late Bill Gregg sent me of a brass data plate[only] that he had 6 , 1941 serial 1806 . If you go by these numbers they were really ramping up production in early 41. The late Peter Ford wasn't sure on the TL [Tankette Light ?] , never found anything on paper. Best pic I have of my data plate at this time.
Nice Project !
Kirk Armitage

[pauljboudreau]

for all you canadian carrier owner looking for marking on them!, the local reserve unit up here has a bren carrier with all the marking on it, il see if they would let me take pictures of it so i could post it here for all of you guys to see and help restoring your carriers! stay tuned!

[Paul Butler]

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

Hi Paul;

In regards to the serial '159' on the Arm of Service marking you are asking about, is it possible that the serial (or number) on this marking is '459'?

Cheers

Mark you could be right about this. I had another good look over the weekend and the 1 could in fact be a 4. With quite a bit of the paint missing it is difficult to 100% sure but it would mean a vehicle from 32nd Reconnaissance Regiment the Royal Montreal Regiment. There are the remains of the First Canadian Army marking on the front plate also, I attach a photo.

Richie I also found the hull number on the back where you said it would be. The number is 457.

Phill I will get you some drawings for the airfilter.

Eddy I will get in touch about the radiator armour because I am going to need some made up.

Cheers

Paul

[RichardT10829]

wow that is a low number...so potentially very early in the mass production side of things...we really need Nigel here on this one, i have never seen a serial number start like a part number... as Lynn says most components on the carrier start with a TL or CTL... and i have not yet seen a serial finish with a letter mind this means nothing....just means i have not yet seen it.... do you have any images of the rear plate (where the diff bolts to)

and perhaps some pics of the pedals may assist us (but not difinitive) i am going to chuck a guess in there and say that the pedals will be the ribbed pattern rather than the diamond plate.. you can all laugh at me if i am wrong ....its highly possible

[Paul Butler]

Richie

Here are some further pics. The ones of the rear panel probably won't help much but they are all I have for the moment. I will try and post some more later in the week. I reckon the carrier is quite early as so far I have found very little dated later than Feb 41.

Paul

[eddy8men]

hi paul

things move fast in the carrier network, it looks like the rear armour panel is missing from yours i have a spare one you can have, it's a little bent but very useable and your welcome to it, i'm also getting a new speedo cable made for £30 do you want one . i would assume you have the same dash panel as mine with english instruments with the smiths speedo. give me a call on 07970828122 if you need anything

all the best

eddy

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Paul Butler

Mark you could be right about this. I had another good look over the weekend and the 1 could in fact be a 4. With quite a bit of the paint missing it is difficult to 100% sure but it would mean a vehicle from 32nd Reconnaissance Regiment the Royal Montreal Regiment. There are the remains of the First Canadian Army marking on the front plate also, I attach a photo.

Hi Paul;

I figured that it was ‘459' and not ‘159'. The attached are an example of the markings used by the 32nd Reconnaissance Regiment (Royal Montreal Regiment), C.A.C. from approximately 25 January 1943 to 12 April 1944. On the left, the AoS marking with serial '459' and white bar below to denote 'Army Troops' and on the right, the Formation sign used by 'First Canadian Army Troops'.

Cheers

[RichardT10829]

Mark, so from that is it quite highly likely that this carrier actually saw some action ?

[rob love]

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

. and i have not yet seen a serial finish with a letter mind this means nothing....just means i have not yet seen it.... do you have any images of the rear plate (where the diff bolts to)

Ford's practice back in the day was to finish the serial number off with an F to prevent people from altering the serial number by stamping more numbers on. I know that when I tried to register a very early (1941) 15cwt the provincial registrar would not accept the F.

[Kirk Armitage]

Originally Posted by rob love

Ford's practice back in the day was to finish the serial number off with an F to prevent people from altering the serial number by stamping more numbers on. I know that when I tried to register a very early (1941) 15cwt the provincial registrar would not accept the F.

Nice to find out about the "F" ,any insight into the "TL" Rob ? It looks like they dropped the letters by at least june 41 going by Bill Greg's data plate.
Kirk Armitage

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by RichardT10829

Mark, so from that is it quite highly likely that this carrier actually saw some action ?

Hi Richard;

Unless Paul found another Arm of Service marking painted over that of the ‘459' serial, it is highly unlikely that the carrier was used in ‘action’. The 32nd Reconnaissance Regiment (Royal Montreal Regiment), C.A.C. was converted and re-designated the First Army Headquarters Defence Company (Royal Montreal Regiment) and reallocated to the Canadian Infantry Corps from the Canadian Armoured Corps effective 12 April 1944, whereupon they would have adopted the AoS marking of serial ‘9' on a black background with a 2-inch white bar beneath denoting ‘Army Troops’.

Cheers

[Phill]

I was reading Kirk's note that he posted with interest. It seems my #777 wreck, which is missing the data plate came from Brighton, Ontario. I run into a chap at the recent Coe Hill meet, Frank Von Rosensteil, who answered a lot of questions I had on tanks, as I would like to acquire one. His knowledge on armor was impressive and he soon asked what I had. When I mentioned the rusty #777 carrier hull with the floor rotted out, he knew exactly where it came from. The carrier apparently started near or at a trailer park in Brighton. I can't remember exactly who owned it but it went west toward Toronto and 2 owners later, Dan McCaw bought it and brought it back to Coe Hill. Bit and pieces have disappeared off it all along the way. Wonder if that is the data plate for my carrier?..... Phil

[Marc van Aalderen]

Originally Posted by eddy8men

i'm also getting a new speedo cable made for £30 do you want one . i would assume you have the same dash panel as mine with english instruments with the smiths speedo. eddy

Hi Eddy,

I would be interested in a speedo cable as my Carrier has none at the moment. Do you know if the cable for my Canadian Mk2 will be the same as the one your getting made?
I also need the driven gear and the housing. Anybody got these extra and wants to sell them?

Thanks,
Marc van Aalderen

[eddy8men]

hi marc
sorry but i don't think the mk2 speedo has the same drive at the speedo end but i'm sure someone on the forum will know for sure, if it is the same then of course it will be no problem to order another for you.
you might try ajmac for the driven gear as i think he's got 2 axles for his loyd restoration and might have the parts you need

all the best

eddy

[RichardT10829]

i have a canadian mk1 with a canadian mk2 speedo and it seems to marry up to the drive ok ? mind the carrier has not moved so who knows......it should work imagine the pain it would cause having to mess around with cables and drives when servicing the axles in the field...

i am confident it should be ok.

[Paul Butler]

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

Hi Paul;

I figured that it was ‘459' and not ‘159'. The attached are an example of the markings used by the 32nd Reconnaissance Regiment (Royal Montreal Regiment), C.A.C. from approximately 25 January 1943 to 12 April 1944. On the left, the AoS marking with serial '459' and white bar below to denote 'Army Troops' and on the right, the Formation sign used by 'First Canadian Army Troops'.

Cheers

Mark , thanks for your input on this. I am going to do a little research on the 32nd and see what turns up.

regards
Paul