Flathead Colour

[ajmac]

We must remember that Flatheads were made at least three different Countries

UK, USA, Canada .... Australia too?

However Mercs were only built in the USA and went into the T16s, for some reason we wouldn't accept them, although we did test them. The wartime manual I have lists all Flathead types for UCs and Loyds and if you go through the cylinder liners list it says all versions can take the Dagenham liner. If any were the 95/100 BHP version they would have the larger bore to give the 3.8L capacity.
HOWEVER wartime manuals on UCs must be taken with a pinch of salt

[andrew honychurch]

maybe the extra uumph would have given the drive train track warping some problems? Ot perhaps they wer not seen as necessary?

[RichardT10829]

Not all carrier engines were 85hp buddy. the earlier brit lumps were the lower 60hp units. It was the canadians i believe who saw common sense and put the bigger 24 stud 85hp lumps in

Andrew. the way i look at it is paint it in what ever you like best, after all it is one of those items that could be easily rectified by a pure'ist at a later date.


how about ford diamond white then get all the bolts exchanged for chrome plated ones...and a nice pollished blower on the top

David (Horsa) would be best to speak with, if going for acuracy bud then paint it that dark blue / black that mercury used.

[ajmac]

UC parts list states all V8s used in UCs and Loyds are 221ci (85 BHP) - November 1944. However the April 1944 Loyd Workshop Manual states in the Power Unit preamble that the USA engine is 90 BHP while the UK version is 85 BHP! On the face of it, it looks like Loyds were never manufactured with Canadian Flatheads.

[Local Chap]

Originally Posted by ajmac

All 85 BHP Ford V8s were painted 'Ford Dark Green'.
All 95/100BHP Mercury V8s were painted 'Ford Dark Blue'.

We must remember that Flatheads were made at least three different Countries

UK, USA, Canada .... Australia too?

However Mercs were only built in the USA ...... If any were the 95/100 BHP version they would have the larger bore to give the 3.8L capacity.

Nonsense! ALL of the CMP truck engines are Canadian built "Merc" engines (C99A, aka 3 3/16" bore, aka 95hp), and most of the NOS painted parts for them are Ford Dark Green. There are limited instances of US built engines being supplied to top up production, but by far the bulk of Canadian CMP, MCP and Carrier production had engines made in Canada.

Don't be misled by the majority of online references for Flathead Engines, as most only refer to US production and often state that production ceased altogether between '42 and '45. Canadian made engines continued production throughout and remained Green in both 221 and 239 sizes.
US production used both Green, Blue or Black, while Dagenham used Green or Black.

[ajmac]

Like I said, wartime manuals and parts lists are not too reliable!

When did Dagenham flirt with Black during wartime? I've seen original 1946 and 1947 Dagenham flatheads with US electricals both were ford dark green. A 42/43 UC Dagenham flathead sump in unrestored condition was also ford dark green as well as a 1942 7V Flathead in original condition....

I wasn't really thinking about Canadian production as I have no details about any Canadian production specs other than they seem to follow Detroit. For instance the parts lists say the Detroit Conrods are the same part as Canadian but NOT Dagenham as we had a design freeze in 1938, thus didn't pick-up the 1938 24 stud upgrade.

Are we saying that Ford Canada produced 3.6L and 3.8L side by side just as they did in Detroit? If so, that's good as it backs up the wartime information that Ford didn't like continuing 3.6L production and only did so as the UK forced them to. Ford offered the Merc to replace the 85BHP Ford 3.6L but we said no.

The 1941 Loyd manual sates 85BHP and the manual is widely a cut and paste job from an earlier UC publication. I've got all the Loyd parts lists updates from November 1944 until 1950 which also fully covers the UC power unit too, none of the list updates mention engine changes, which suggests the 85BHP stayed with the British UC throughout wartime. What do the Canadian Produced UC parts lists say?

[The Bedford Boys]

So basicly you can fit any size engine, in an colour of the rainbow and it doesn't make a blind bit of difference? Tehehehehehe....

[ajmac]

That's about the size of it!

Mine is going green along with the gearbox as I found original dark green paint hidden under the oil and grime on the Loyds.

Also of interest is the ford supplied parts which Loyd used, every part of the Loyd has a pea green primer and OD top coat, however the prop cover, torque tube and I THINK the axle all have a red oxide primer and OD topcoat. I'm not sure about the bogies yet as they haven't given me one spot of paint, far too much rust for that!

The Flathead from the Loyd is proving a bu#ger to strip down due to the range damage, however evidence suggests that it is wartime production. 24 stud, which gives us post 1939. Two bolt front cover, which gives us post 1942 and no cast numbers on the bell housing which means not post 46 production. 1942 - 1946.

Does anyone know how I can ID it as Canadian manufactured?

[Lynn Eades]

is there a cast number above the water pump, or any stampings on the inlet manifold face of the block?

[andrew honychurch]

OK, well as predicted this will run and run. So basically, you have a choice, and I have chosen Ford Blue! Why, because I like it. The black is very smart but wont give the definition between the flat black of the Dynamo, starter, carburettor body etc. So blue it is. I hesitate to post this photo for fear of being told it is wrong, but please remember it is still wet when I took the photo and of course it is a photo so not necessarily an accurate depiction. It is however, Ford engine blue from US paint manaufacturer POR. It will look very smart I hope. Not disimilar to David Gordon engine colour either and very close to the NOS inlet manifold I bought, pre fading.

[Lynn Eades]

Yes it does go on. I have just re visited the Vanpelt site (American)again.
It states, about colours, that Ford and Merc engines, through 1940 to 1942 were dark green. Then it said Merc engines were dark blue from 1941 to 1948.(one contradicts the other) Post war Fords were blue, and that truck engine paint colours generally were the same as car engines. I imagine in the U.K. that at times there were issues with supply of paint pigments, along with every thing else, and that the power unit colours were not always one colour.
I guess if one is really embarassed about the colour, then they could always leave the engine covers on
Ps. From a mechanics point of veiw,black is the worst possible colour because you cannot see anything. Its just a black hole, and you cant see any faults. Yellow is great! but for a carrier Blue or Green is bang on!