Tommy gun in the ETO

[Ed Storey]

Guys, no wonder the average collector and restorer is so confused, you all keep focusing on the half-percent anomalies! The fact is and remains that the Sten was used by the Canadian Army in North-west Europe and the Thompson was used in Italy. Sure there is a picture of a patrol in the winter and the lead person has a Thompson and okay some old Canadian Vet said he had one, that is well and good but the answer is that the Sten was the Machine Carbine used by the Army in NW Europe. Stop muddying the waters by dredging up exceptions.

There is also the infamous photograph of a member of the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion carrying a M1 Garand. Interesting photograph, again an anomaly but it was fuel for the fire for every 1 Can Para Re-enactor in the US to use it as an excuse to arm himself with an M1 instead of a No. 4. Nice photograph, but wrong conclusion.

Once again I hearken to tables of organization and equipment in which the Sten is THE machine Carbine for the Army in NW Europe and this has to do with supply which simply means, ammunition and parts. A member of Canadian in the Army in NW Europe in WWII would not be entitled to nor issued with a Thompson. If one were procured, then ammunition would be a problem as .45 cal ACP ammunition would not be forthcoming up through the Canadian supply chain.

If you are restoring a vehicle or putting together a uniform impression for NW Europe, then the Sten is the only correct option and answer.

So ends the lesson!

[gary_bath_jr]

So Ends the Lesson??? HHMMMMM

[servicepub (RIP)]

I wish I had seen this yesterday as I would have said everything Ed said - but not as subtlely.
Canadian policy was Thompson in the AAI and the Sten in NWE. I feel for the idiot who carries a weapon that is not supported as the provision of parts would be impossible and ammo next to non-existent. I also think that carrying the extra pounds for the sake of a contemporary 'look cool factor' wouldn't be wotrth it after a few kilometres.
That a soldier in the Airborne carries a Thompson is moot. All Canadian Airborne troops came under the 6th (British) AB Division and the British may have had a separate policy.
Clive

[Gerry McGinty]

"If you are restoring a vehicle or putting together a uniform impression for NW Europe, then the Sten is the only correct option and answer."

I am thinking of making a small diorama of the Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada on patrol near Nijmegen, Netherlands, 22 January 1945 one carrying a Thompson and the fourth in line carrying a Sten - do you think that this is realistic?

Regards
Gerry

[Lynn Eades]

I'll start this with "I know nothing about the history of what actually happened",Apart from respecting Ed for his expertise in this area, It just make sense, what he says. Basically the military stands and falls on disapline. I Imagine that "Standing orders" precluded a soldier from carrying anything but his issued kit. If Thompsons were not issued, then were did they come from? about the only way to have one is to take it from the enemy, after he had taken it from his enemy.
I find it annoying when guys want to hang every kind of 50 cal browning all over every carrier. Yes, I'm sure these things happened occasionally, but in the overall scheme of things, as Ed says, these events are anomalies.
I see it in the best of museums,(I havent been to many, but one doesn't have to visit many) where things are displayed, perported to be the truth, but in reality they are not.
On the other side of this Gerry, our fathers and grandfathers fought, so that you could freely exercise your artistic license.
Do that which the man in the mirror is comfortable with.

[Gerry McGinty]

Hi Lynn
I was just having a laugh - of course I respect Ed’s expertise.
I am just fascinated by the anomalous use of weapons in WWII - British paras and SAS using M1 carbines, SAS use of Italian Beretta SMGs etc. and I love to see references such as we have been discussing.

By the way if anyone has stories of refs. Of this kind, please contact me (online or off) so that I can add them to my file.

Best regards

Gerry

[Jordan Baker]

yes Stens for NWE were the rule. I didn't put that in my posting as I thought it would be rather a given from the first couple of postings. I only wanted to pass on some more info and that was that. You only have to look at my carrier resto to see that I do it buy the book.

On a related note. I was under the assumption that American made armoured vehicles came with all or most of the equipment as issued in the US. IE, the US tanker helmets, .50 and .30cal mgs and Thompson SMG's and that this was how a lot of this stuff made it into the system.

(pls read all this with a lighthearded frame of mind, not trying to start anything or add fuel to a fire)

[Murray]

When 1st. Cdn. Div. moved from Italy to NWE were their Thompsons taken away and were they re-issued with Stens? I remember my Dad saying he had a Thompson from 1943 through the end of the war, which means he would have taken it with him to NWE.

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Gerry McGinty

"If you are restoring a vehicle or putting together a uniform impression for NW Europe, then the Sten is the only correct option and answer."

I am thinking of making a small diorama of the Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada on patrol near Nijmegen, Netherlands, 22 January 1945 one carrying a Thompson and the fourth in line carrying a Sten - do you think that this is realistic?

Regards
Gerry

Gerry, as a reenactor and collector I've been either in the thick of or on the outskirts of many discussions regarding authenticity such as whether Gebirgsjager reenactors should wear beards or should Marines carry the Boys ATR or the Johnson 1941. I once put a Nazi flag on my CMP and used it in a reenactment in a "under new Management" scenario. There are those that prefer the cookie cutter impression...I personally consider that a little tame. The fact that they weren't part of someone's scale of issue is a specious argument and ignores significant events in history. U.S Special Forces in Vietnam sometimes carried AK47's among other non-issue weapons. In the First World War Canadian troops by the droves chucked their Ross rifles away and used Lee-Enfields they gleaned from the battlefield. If you wish to portray what the "standard" soldier looked like, then by all means carry a Sten with your blancoed webbing and a clean shaven face. If you want to show what a soldier looked like after weeks in combat, then by all means do that also. I used to send a Warning Order out to my guys to stop shaving a week before an event in order to authentically present what a soldier in combat looked like. My humble opinion is that if you have historical evidence of an event, such as a picture, then "fill yer boots" my friend!

Derek.

[Ed Storey]

You are kidding, right? Stop shaving a week before an event! Have a quick look at the images held within the Faces of War site that is hosted by the Library and Archives Canada. You will not find many Canadian soldiers who are not clean shaven, shaving was and still is SOP.

Instead of trying to portray what you think is 'cool', why not do a bit a of research and present to the public what was accurate and correct.

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

You are kidding, right? Stop shaving a week before an event! Have a quick look at the images held within the Faces of War site that is hosted by the Library and Archives Canada. You will not find many Canadian soldiers who are not clean shaven, shaving was and still is SOP.

Instead of trying to portray what you think is 'cool', why not do a bit a of research and present to the public what was accurate and correct.

You misquote me sir, I never used the word 'cool'. I've seen several photos of scraggly faced Canadian soldiers over the years, the most well known of which is the picture taken on August 11, 1943 of Sgt. H E Cooper of the 48th Highlanders of Canada which was widely distributed in the press. If you feel the need to quote me again in the future, "historically accurate" would be more appropriate.

Derek.

[Mk1rceme]

My Grandfather had a Thompson while driving ambulances for 1MAC in Sicily/Italy, and after the creation of the RCEME where he spent his days with 1div, 3bde infantry workshop. He was able to keep it until he got the word that he was going to France.

If I recall correctly, he was issued the Thompson in England shortly before leaving for Sicily. He said you had to be very protective over the Thompson...if you put it down and turned your back for a second, it would be gone.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by sapper740

You misquote me sir, I never used the word 'cool'. I've seen several photos of scraggly faced Canadian soldiers over the years, the most well known of which is the picture taken on August 11, 1943 of Sgt. H E Cooper of the 48th Highlanders of Canada which was widely distributed in the press. If you feel the need to quote me again in the future, "historically accurate" would be more appropriate.

Derek.

. . . did it ever occur to you Derek, that Sgt. Cooper may have been a ‘Pioneer’ . . .

The photo you refer to is attached (Source: LAC)

Cheers