M38a1cdn

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Mike Baker

10" drums definitely suggests CDN3, but some CDN2s were also upgraded with 10" brakes.

I have never seen a mod instruction or CFTO authorizing the change of the smaller brakes to the larger. In fact, if I recall, the rear backing plates would not even change across from a Cdn 3 to the earlier Cdn2 axle. It would have required the complete axle assembly to have been changed over, which would also require the different U bolts. I seem to recall a CFTO on that change over if required.

It may have just been that someone ordered in a wrong axle assembly for a Cdn2, or that axle assemblies had been salvaged from Cdn3 PCC'd jeeps. It could have been a problem if only a front axle had the larger brakes than a rear axle, as this could have resulted in over braking on the steering axle. The larger self actuating brakes were a marked improvement over those puny simple original brakes.

I would agree with your theory on the data plates. The earlier ones could have faded, or have been taken as a souvenir by someone. It was only recently that anyone was making replacement data plates for the Cdn Jeeps. With the few that are out there, it is a miracle that anyone has bothered to invest the money into such a product.

[rob love]

Just another quick post to detail some of the Cdn3 characteristics if you want to confirm the Jeep is a 70/71 year Cdn3. There should be the flat faced (no hubcap) rear one piece axles, and the larger brakes. As Mike mentioned, these can be swapped about to other years. Also look for a small 5" square plates boxing the frame over the front hangers of the rear springs. Also, the seat belt backing washers were square and welded to the body. On the earlier jeeps they were an add on, and used round backing washers. The body and frame were items that would not usually be swapped out or upgraded on earlier jeeps. As well, look for closed hood hinges, as opposed to the open hinges which would allow the hood to be removed when opened to a certain angle. Often, if you forgot to latch the hood on a Cdn2, the hood would fly open and out of the hinges, and bounce of the driver's head as punishment for the omission.

There were other minor differences between Cdn2 and Cdn3, but these are the ones that come to mind to provide quick ID of the Jeeps year.

[chris vickery]

Thanks for the help, I will try to post some pics soon...

When I purchased said veh, the hood numbers seemed odd to me, both colour and the fact they were there at all. I did track them on the data base at Tank net. According to that site, 70-80669 should have a VIN of 10071. When the guy showed me the owndership, it was indeed titled as VIN 10071. I don't know if someone pulled this set of numbers out of thin air but they are related at least.

I know data plates were often stolen or removed during a vehs lifetime, especially after service life. The odd thing to me is that the replacement plates are US ones, they are old and they are bare of any data. The plate on the rear well seems to gone astray as well.
I know that the MTO here in Ontario will not duplicate serial numbers so the fact it is registered as 10071 I am going to assume that is its true identity unless someone can come up with another original M38A1 CDN3 with intact data plates showing me otherwise...

According to research done by another fellow here on MLU, it was suggested to me that this unit was deemed surplus around May 1983 having come out of CFB Borden. Previous to this it was stationed at CFB London from Jan 1970 to 1979. Currently it bears a coloured CDN flag on the front right and rear left sides as well as a blue over white rectangular patch, I believe is RCASC. In 1970 I am not sure that this would have been correct as I am not familiar with modern emblems used in the 70s and 80s.

It is possible of course that someone added his own artitic ability to this or maybe marked it according to a fellows former Aos,, hard to say as the chap who sold this to me was doing so on behalf of an estate and the former owner isn't available for comment...

As far a headlight covers I did see something which indicated early 1952s were issued with wire mesh guards, perhaps a surplus item added later by the owner although not correct.

The rear axles are flat type and the hinges appear to be closed type on the hood. I did measure the brake backers and they are 10".

[Mike Baker]

Originally Posted by rob love

I have never seen a mod instruction or CFTO authorizing the change of the smaller brakes to the larger. In fact, if I recall, the rear backing plates would not even change across from a Cdn 3 to the earlier Cdn2 axle. It would have required the complete axle assembly to have been changed over, which would also require the different U bolts. I seem to recall a CFTO on that change over if required.

My understanding was that the axles were changed on quite a few of the CDN2s, but I will defer to your experience, especially given that I was still in elementary school when my CDN2 was retired from the service. It still has the 9" drums.

Another question for my own benefit - the VMO history for my truck indicates that it served in Wainwright and then Chilliwack, which is where is was retired. No units are listed, and the maintenance was all done by the bases. However, my canvas top had "BCR" stencilled on it in white paint. BCR would be the BC Regiment, but what are the odds that my truck was actually used by them? Did militia units do their own maintenance back then, or would it make sense that the vehicle sat in Chilliwack most of the time?

Thanks.

Mike

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by Mike Baker

Another question for my own benefit - the VMO history for my truck indicates that it served in Wainwright and then Chilliwack, which is where is was retired. No units are listed, and the maintenance was all done by the bases. However, my canvas top had "BCR" stencilled on it in white paint. BCR would be the BC Regiment, but what are the odds that my truck was actually used by them? Did militia units do their own maintenance back then, or would it make sense that the vehicle sat in Chilliwack most of the time?

Thanks.

Mike

Its not unusual (nowadays) for Reserve Units to have vehicles pooled at the closest Area Support Unit. This is especially true for places like Chilliwack, London, Toronto, Halifax etc. Even the Reg Force has shifter to this to some extent with CMTC by having the MRTF fleet that is set aside for deployment training. It is usually the Reserve Units that are far removed that usually keep a dedicated small fleet.

In the case of your Jeep coming from Chilliwack, it was most likely part of the pool there and could have been in use with any of the Lower Mainland reserve units as well as CFSME, CFOCS and possibly even 1 CER. Even during my time in the Wack in the early 90s, the Base Tpt Section held a fairly significant SMP Fleet. There was also the DMER pool, but it was mostly Engineer Specific equipment and trucks.

A side note, I also had a 38A1 CDN2 (forgot the CFR) back when I lived out there. It had TAC signs from the Royal Westminster Regiment and yet the Doors and Cavnvas were marked BC Dragoons.....

Scotty

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Mike Baker

My understanding was that the axles were changed on quite a few of the CDN2s, but I will defer to your experience, especially given that I was still in elementary school when my CDN2 was retired from the service. It still has the 9" drums.

Another question for my own benefit - the VMO history for my truck indicates that it served in Wainwright and then Chilliwack, which is where is was retired. No units are listed, and the maintenance was all done by the bases. However, my canvas top had "BCR" stencilled on it in white paint. BCR would be the BC Regiment, but what are the odds that my truck was actually used by them? Did militia units do their own maintenance back then, or would it make sense that the vehicle sat in Chilliwack most of the time?

Thanks.

Mike

I have seen a reference to the brake upgrades in the Service Publication's pamphlet on the Jeeps. I never saw any evidence of that in Western Canada, and at one point in the early 80s I had my hands on just about every M38A1Cdn from Alberta to Northern On. I was a jeep nut then, and always kept my eye open for anomolies.

The swapping and outright theft of tarps between vehicles was quite common. When units brought all their vehicles to the summer camps like Dundurn, all the EIS would be turned in to transport on arrival. There was not a lot of call for the canvas during the summer. At the end of the summer, tarps would be handed back out to vehicles as they left, usually with no regard as to unit markings. This was much to the chagrin of those unit quartermasters who actually took the time to get the canvas repaired thru the winter. As a result of this, you could find canvas swapped around between pretty much any unit in Western Canada.

As well, vehicles waiting in parking lots like a base transport were prime candidates for a driver to upgrade or replace missing or damaged canvas. Even seats could move between vehicles, and there was even the occasional heater which would disappear. When I was in 2VP, we actually installed grommets with cables and locks around the rollbar on our Maint O's Iltis. Nothing was sacred out in a parking lot. Before a rail move, you pretty much had to lock up your D rings. Even batteries seemed to vaporize during the winter months, including on priority vehicles like ambulances.

Even on release and sale, tarps would go walking. At the crown assets auctions in Winnipeg, a jeep with full tarp would sell for significantly more than a bare unit. More than one owner would pay for his Jeep in the office, only to walk out and find his fully tarped Jeep was now bare. In some cases, guys seemed to bid almost $1,000 more for a complete unit.

[Scott Bentley]

Originally Posted by rob love

The swapping and outright theft of tarps between vehicles was quite common.

Even batteries seemed to vaporize during the winter months, including on priority vehicles like ambulances.

I nearly fell out of my chair laughing with those comments

Our biggest heist was the Fuel Fired Heater out of an M113A2 Pioneer Dozer. At that point we were pulling them for repair so often that two guys (the wrench operator and a lookout man) could execute the Re & Re job with "Mission Impossible" speed and accuracy. Because of the "stellar" reliability record of those heaters, the victim never suspected that they were robbed

Mind you, by that point most crews had Propane Red Eyes and a BBQ Bottle on the roof as a backup for when the old Screaming Inferno heater decided to make its cough of death. Nothing like Mech Warfare in February....