2011 at the Hammond Barn

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

Thanks for the further explanation of the pairs testing had to digest your pair testing experiment a little further. I've learned the hard way not to rush to a conclusion, what I try to do now is list all of the possible causes for a problem, then take that list and put it in order of easy to confirm or check to most difficult. Saves taking the carb apart to discover the gas tank is empty go ahead laugh I did it once fuel gauge switch was left and the selector valve was right and it wasn't till I had the top off the carb to figure out no fuel.

Concerning running the engine with valve cover off not a major problem, see engine test videos http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ineTesting.htm Particularly video 1 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20001_0001.wmv or 3 http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20003%20--.wmv just glue the gasket to the head with gasket cement it then acts as a cofferdam to keep the oil in. Generally you don’t need to put any gasket cement on the side to the cover, that way you can remove the cover without having to replace the gasket. I have a lexan side cover for the push rod gallery, which lets me see if the lifters are actually rotating.

But back to your diagnostic test, you are doing, it would be interesting to match your pair testing with the compression test figures and think about the logic of why the engine runs with two of the pairs but not the third pair. Of course replacing the wires with known good ones will also help clarify the issues. Hopefully the problem will completely disappear.

Sounds like you are going down the line of check the simple stuff first, which is why I was reluctant to suggest one possible cause, until I check that you can check it with out taking the engine apart. That problem is cam lobe wear below is a picture of two intake cam lobes on the cam that came out of my 235 the really worn one is .08" shorter than the other in lift. Before I mentioned this pain in the ass to repair issue wanted to be sure that their was a non-invasive way of checking. Does the manual you have this section on checking Lobe Lift?

Yesterday I did this check on the 216 out of my HUP, first step in determining how extensive an over haul it needs, biggest problem I had was getting the mag base of my dial indicator to really clamp tight to the head and be in the same plain as the push rods.

Forgot to put the rest of the phrase “64K dollar question” as from the quiz program but you got my point.

Back out to the shop temperature out side high 50s F, mud season just beginning, roads look like someone had been using them for mortar practice, some of the pot holes are so big they look more like shell craters particularly when there are bits of cars laying around after hitting them.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

Well I was pretty much right about running 235 without the valve cover in place. When out lifted the cover off the 235 on the engine test stand and hit the starter. At 400-500 RPM no splash no drips but at 1400 RPM a few drops of oil start coming out and landing on the manifold.

Added some higher resolution video of the 235 engine running topless. http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...ineTesting.htm Click on 3-18-11 235 running 001
3-18-11 235 running 002 these don't work well with dial up work good on high speed internet.

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

There is not much to report from the barn. This weekend was fairly quiet. Bob headed to the sunny climes of southern Ontario to talk carbs (no, he is not on a diet), and maybe swing a deal to pick up a few more CMPs…I didn’t make it out to the barn until Sunday morning. It was a balmy 0oC with no noticeable wind to drive the temperature downwards. The sun shone brightly all day long, which turned the once frozen approach to the barn into the usual springtime quagmire.

The warmer temperatures over the past few weeks served to knock back the snow drifts and to reduce the amount of ice on the roads leading to the barn. This meant more water and mud, but like the return of the Robin (the flying type), they are welcome signs of a change of season. Later that morning, Grant arrived at the barn to perform some administrative chores. My first chore was to remove the accumulated snow from around my shelters. If left in place, the melt waters will gravitate to the shelter floor. Much like it did in “Club HUP”. Grant and I dug a drainage ditch to drain the water on the floor of the shelter.

The rest of the last day of winter was spent babying the HUP. After winching it out of its shelter, I spent the most of the morning fabricating and installing an electrical system kill-switch and mount, and then I changed the oil. The electrical work went well, although it is not hooked up yet…so the jury is still out on that one. The oil change was interesting. After running the HUP for about 15 minutes, I shut her down and prepared to perform her first oil change. With all due regard for the environment, the HUP was prepared for her transfusion. The oil pan bolt came out with no trouble at all – right into the oil container. After fishing the nut out of the oil container, I watched the dirty oil drip out, fascinated by how dirty oil gets with only about 10 hours of running time on the clock. After the dripping ceased, I replaced the oil pan plug (had you worried there, didn’t I?).

The next step was to remove the two oil filters that were hidden under the frame rail. Sometimes I am amazed at my physical strength. I put both filters on “hand tight”, but it took a considerable amount of positioning and grunting to get them off. After a five minute fight, I managed to get number one to twist ever so slightly. Encouraged, I gave a mighty heave and finally, the filter gave up its fight. But not before it dripped dirty oil down its sides. No problem, says I. My latex gloves will keep my hands oil free. After spinning the filter, off it came. Oil, I am told, has some slippery properties. Combined with latex gloves, it is like grabbing onto a greased pig. Needless to say, the filter slipped out of my hands and plunged directly into the container of oil previously bled from the oil pan. Now these filters are not the little ones found on your average small car – they are quite big and have considerable heft – judging from the cascades of oil that landed on my coveralls, the front tire, and the cardboard box used for a ground sheet.

After a 20 minute clean up, I tackled number two filter. No mistakes this time – it came off nicely and was gingerly emptied into the oil container. Next, I filled the new filters with fresh oil and screwed them on – hand tight of course… Both filters were then marked with the date of the oil change with permanent marker. The rest of the new oil was dumped into the opening in the valve cover. Not a good idea. Too much oil at any time causes a flood over the valve cover gasket and the oil seeks a way to escape. My valve cover has a few dents and dings in it and it does not exactly fit the gasket perfectly – as was witnessed by the oil oozing down the drivers side of the engine block. After a 20 minute clean up, I declared that simple task done.

Feeling like I had accomplished something, I decided to tackle a persistent problem with the accelerator linkage. The linkage binds when you first press on it with your foot, and then it gives way suddenly. This makes driving the truck very exciting. Grant and I studied the linkage and determined where we thought the binding occurred. After some tinkering and lots of lube, it was decided that the problem was the linkage lever that ultimately connected to the carburetor. The trick was taking the little rig apart. Off came the “C” clip. Attempts to remove the lever proved futile as the exhaust flange was in the way. Brilliant idea! Remove the pin that holds the lever. No go - still no clearance. Next, remove the exhaust bolts and lower the flange. Success! Off came the lever. Now, call it curiosity, or just plain stupidity, but I decided that the pin could use a cleaning. Out came the wrench and the pin was removed with no fight at all. My delight turned to horror, for as soon as I removed the pin, a torrent of nice green anti-freeze sprayed out of the block. It is amazing how your memory works (or does not work at the proper time) when faced with a crisis. In my mind, I recalled that I had seen this happen before – some fellow named Bob, I think, pulled the same stunt a few years earlier. Good laughs all round then…not so much this day. The pin was promptly returned to its home and left there.

After a 30 minute clean up, I took the lever to compare it to one of the engines in the barn. The lever configuration was somewhat the same, but the angles were different. It was then that it struck me – the engine was out of a North American commercial vehicle and the lever was actuated from behind the engine – not from the front. To fix this problem, I cut a “V’ into the upper portion of the lever and carefully forced the gap to close. A few zaps with the MIG welder later, the lever was ready for its test run.

The linkage was reassembled and it worked somewhat better. There still seemed to be a lot of resistance. This was problem was traced to the two return springs I had set up. I took off one of the springs and tried it again. Success! Giddy with excitement, I started up the HUP and tested the gas pedal. Outstanding! But what was that noise I was hearing? Oh yes, the exhaust bolts…After a quick shut down, the bolts and the flange were reinstalled. Now it was approaching time to go home. After driving the HUP back into her shelter, I bade her a fond good-bye, wondering where the day went…

Lever photos:
1st - "Normal lever config"
2nd - Comparison - after bending the original
3rd - Final product (less dressing up and paint)

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Rob

Sounds like you guys don't need me have fun and shower in oil and antifreeze.... sure Phil got a chuckle from that stunt has he did the sme thing once.

Think of buying a large oil filter socket that fits the bottom indentations of the PH 8 filters...cheap at CTC..... then I can borrow it..... or I might even have one soemwhere..... or Grant will find it for me and offer to sell it to me.....

Phil

Need to read the GM manual on using a dial indicator...... also need to pick up or order some spare cork/rubber gaskets for the valve cover...... Rob whenever we remove your valve cover will need to straighten out the edges flatter to minimize leaks....

Eventually will need to redo the balance test on Rob's truck and pay more attention to vaccum readings...... etc... then will need to repeat process on mine to see where that popping sound in the exhaust comes from....probably a miss adjusted valve.

Will try to do like Phil and make a video of the clattering valves.

I don't know if it is an illusion but when you watche the valve rockers in action..... they seem to do a series of fast flicker... then stop/pause for a brief moment.... then start again..... in a repeated cycle....

Phil... if I do not need to rev up the engine with the valve cover removed.... do I really need to fabricate an open top valve cover...? a good siliconed gasket as an oil dam may suffice...? enjoyed your video....

Also.... did you instal a fairlead on the front bumper of your cab 12... and if so do you have a picture of it...? looking at location in relationship to the vertical grill guard and the D ring bracket.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob and Bob

About that accelerator pivot bolt, whoever thought that going into the water jacket was a good idea need to have to work on the thing. In reading Rob's post about the thing binding I was planning to comment, but Bob beat me to it.

Yup my throttle linkage pivot crank seemed to bind. On my first major trip out with the new engine in BEAUTY the binding succeeded in walking the bolt all the way out going down the road. That sudden sweet smell as the antifreeze peed out on the exhaust pipe. Pulled over saw what the problem was waited for the engine and exhaust pipe to cool reinstalled the pivot crank with gasket cement and pulled out the wash up water hose from the shower in the truck and refilled the radiator.

I have the water hot water system for the shower set up with an outside hose so that I can use the hot water to clean parts in the shop 20' hose and you can also fill the radiator. Much easier than standing on the bumper trying to pour water out of a 5 gallon jerry can.

Nice work on the rework of the pivot crank, wish I'd though of that instead of spending a day making one out of bar stock.

Out to the shop now to run test the engine out of my HUP, already know the cam lift is even and inside reasonable limits from dial indicator test, now for a good compression test, know what the compression was 10 years ago, have to see what it is now. Also once the engine is running under controlled conditions on the test stand want to check the valve clearances to see how much they have worn, also got to see if I made an entry in the log as to when I last adjusted them.


Cheers Phi

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Guys

Yesterday I thought I had your rough running nailed and was going to be able to post a video with sound of my engine doing the exact same thing with cause identified.

The key was the sound track but all my camera picked up was the howl of the fan, and when I went out this morning with a good sound recording unit I could not get the engine to repeat the performance.

But let me tell you what I found and is this something you have tested for or ruled out. Excessive fuel pressure 8psi + caused a ragged running with poor acceleration.

How did I get to this, running the 216, out of my HUP, on the test stand suddenly it started running rough without changing anything setting started checking all the gauges and when I looked at the fuel pressure gauge it was pegged. Turned off the electric fuel pump which is hooked in line with the mechanical and as soon as the engine bleed the pressure down to 4-5 psi of the mechanical pump, engine smooth right out. Turned the fuel pump back on engine started running ragged again. Looked down the carb you could even see a difference in the fuel spray plus fuel leaking. Today when I tried to repeat the problem the fuel float valve worked perfectly and seal and metered the fuel correctly.

Just another one of those fun little gremlins to track down.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

.... interesting observation....... we have no way of telling what pressure it is running at but will investigate..... he is running a standard mechanical pump with a removeable outbourd fuel tank.

When we described Rob's engine as running rough it may be missleading..... our choice of words may have been misleading.....

His engine developed a vibration..... that increses with rpm..... not strong vibration but a noticeable one..... as if something was out of round. Now the new spark plugs have greatly reduced that ill shaking....almost gone but not totally. I uspect that it would not even record on a microphone... the rough running vibration his much more felt than heard.

On the other hand my engine as a small persistent not regualr popping or puffing sound from the exhaust and can be heard an felt if you hold your hand by the outlet of the exhaust pipe.... I suspect a valve adjustment is needed....... hoping against all odds that I did not burn out or wear out a cam lobe on the start up......

On separate note...... I scored a spare Carter YF 966s carburator and I am having an elusive Zenith 28 228 carb rebuilt..... originally stock on 270 GMC.... it will be nice to see which runs best on the 261...... all of them will accept the stock 216 air breather. In time, pictures will follow.

Hang in there and thanks for the intellectual/mechanical dialogue.

Bob