New Hampshire CMP Barn 2011- 2012 HUP Overhaul

[Ganmain Tony]

Gday Phil,

I know its probably been said before but I'm particularly enjoying this thread as its very informative and I'm learning a bit....so thankyou..

Fantastic colour chart youve posted. My frustration with colours for the trucks is many....if I vent a little here its not directed at you or anyone else for that matter...just searching for a solution.

If I print this colour chart and show it to blokes who mix paint, its still not going to come out exact.

If I get an original sample of paint and a paint guy matches it........its still not going to come out exact.

You and I order the same colour, from the same paint manufacturer, made the same way, the same type (two pack, enamel, whatever) in two seperate batches.......its still not exact.

Solutions??? Or is that just how it is and its like the changing of the tides....have to leave it be.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Tony

You are getting right to the heart of the problem of matching color. Olive Drab seems particularly problematic. Years ago I did a lot of research on paint mixes going from the original CMP paint pigment percentage that Peter Ford had come up with. I took the Dupont paint mixing percentages for their colors and matched them to the percentages listed until I found a match.

The Light Stone came out to be a good match to the with the chip in the chart. With that Dupont paint number I've had the paint mixed a number of times over the year and it comes out as a very near match every time. Both of my big CMPs are painted with this mix. I can even touch up paint 5 years later and it matches.

The Olive Drab Shade No. 15, also known as No. 4 Dark Green on the British chart which one of our MLU members posted years ago, has always been problematic, it has never come out the same and I've had it mixed several times. Because of the cost even if it isn't correct or a good match I've end up using it.

So once again I'm trying to find a mix that looks correct and is repeatable, I think that the Mil Spec paint mix number is going to be the best hope of a repeatable paint mix. So I'm going to have pint cans mixed of the closest matches and will use them to paint parts of the vehicle that you will only see if I run over you. Once I find what looks to be a match for the hidden paint I've found I'll go with that.

I found the Peter Ford paint info and have included it below. One of the big problems with getting a match on the OD is that the flattening compound used to get the flat finish, while clear in the can is actually white when dried so it is actually adding to the white pigment levels. The other problem in this is that there is a tint missing #116. So if anybody has what the missing tint is let us know.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Started really testing the engine out the HUP to see what needs to be rebuilt. Known problems:

1. Oil leaks, front and rear main seals, valve cover, side cover
2. Beginning of a little exhaust smoke
3. Exhaust manifold leaks - big time
4. Replace all rubber parts just from age
5. Engine has never had detergent oil
6. Non hardened valves or seats

Other work suspected as this engine

1. Put the original carb back on it - swap the orginal carb for one the C60S as the bigger carb needed the better carb when it had the 216
2. Lower than desired compression more on this below
3. Valve wear, from the 216 in the C60S which spent its entire life at full throttle or idle, valve wear or valve recession is a real problem compounded by the hotter burning gas now.

This engine has never been out of the HUP or apart, this is my from my direct knowledge 1979-now and from talking with the previous owner 1946-1978. I've never even had the head off or dropped the oil pan. Previous owner thought the head was replaced at one point. I've never wanted to mess with success by taking the thing apart, it just runs so nice.

As this particular HUP is basically as original as is likely to be encountered I am very reluctant to replace any thing that can be rebuilt and reused. (See genuine or repro ??? That is the question ! http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=16343 interesting thread)

This includes the engine, so diagnostics before the rebuild I hope will help keep it as original as possible while stopping the oil leaks and ensuring the same level of reliability it has demonstrated over the last 66 years.

Anyway the engine is now completely set up on an engine test stand and can be run, while having full access to the engine top, sides, and bottom not something easily done in the HUP. First thing was bring the engine up to operation temperature with the oil temp fully equalized with the water at 180-185 F used an IR gun get the temps.

I discovered why it is so hard to get a CMP up to temp and equalized with out driving in on the road. It is difficult to get it up to temperature and actually equalized even with the grill completely covered. The design of the fan shroud results in a significant reverse air flow coming forward through the radiator at the top and bottom corners. This air is then sucked back through the center, radiator enclosure which provides 4-8 inches of space between the grill and radiator for this air circulation. Even with the grill area covered this counter airflow allows/causes a significant temp delta from top to bottom. A thin sheet of card stock/poster board slid directly down the front of the radiator will block the counter flow if there is space for it.

Anyway after finally getting the engine equalized at 185 shut it down and did a series of compression tests. Valve lift or cam lobe wear measurement. What I found for valve clearance, and oil pressure to time, oil temp and water temp test.

I'll post the rest of the engine measurements over on my web site because they are on a spread sheet and every time I tried to past the results here the formatting fell apart. http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Margaret my wife has been on vacation this week so have not been out in the shop. But what I have done is updated and modified my web page. Which has included adding some more videos and lot more detailed photos.

Overhaul Page One http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...AUL%202011.htm

Overhaul Page Two http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm

One of the things I've added is the first round of engine tests.

Along with lot of minor corrections.

Cheers Phil

[oztankboy]

Thats a great web site and so interesting all the info and photos on the HUP resto... well done!

Phil...

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All...But what I have done is updated and modified my web page. Which has included adding some more videos and lot more detailed photos. Cheers Phil

Phil, I note with some delight that your HUP has a distinct lean - just like my HUP. I refer to the photo of the back of the HUP near the barn door. While the slope of the driveway may have contributed to the "lean", the truck itself has a distinct "tilt" to it.

I'm beginning to think it is a HUP thing.

[Bob Carriere]

Just took the time to look from A to Z.....fantastic....... informative and very motivating......

Wonder if all the readers/viewers realize the time and effort needed to stop what you are so involved in.... take a picture...record measurements.... and move on to the next step....... and then the evening of posting, writing, editing, etc....phew......

Your site is a treasure chest of priceless information......

Thank you.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Phil in the land of Oz, Rob and Bob


Phil I been enjoying your post on the HUW always great to know another of the family has been restored. Hope you enjoy driving yours as much as I've enjoyed driving my BEAST.

Rob- You notice the lean no it really does lean toward the drivers side, about 1" difference distance frame to ground. Always has had the lean, never have been able to track the cause other than weight of the vehicle not being centered. I even tried to trim the flight level by using the fuel in the right tank first which should be get rid of 80 or so pounds.

One of the first things I checked when I got the body of was did the chassis sit level? Yes. The springs in the at rest disassembled height are almost identical.

Bob- Creating the web site just gives me a way of sharing what I've found over the years, kind of a repayment or pay it forward to all the people from all over the world who shared information about CMPs me when I was getting started. People may not realize how much work goes into a site like MLU or into my site. But when I look at the visitor statistics for my site I get a understanding of what people are getting out of my site. Couple of the statistics I look out is length of visit, number of pages visited, images visited etc. Recently had a visitor from Israel spent 8 hours and looked at virtually every page and every image.

My thanks to everyone who takes time visit the tread and hope you enjoy it. I just expanded the title of this thread curious to see if that helps people find information on HUP overhaul.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Take a look at the picture first, see if you can spot the problem? Got the problem? Well here is a hint note the assembly aid the white arrow and letter. also note the position of the hole for the lub fill.

Got the problem, one last hint the top edge of the picture is the top end of the transfer case and the mounting bolts.

Yup, the cover will actually bolt up the wrong way around and all the bolts lined up as did the locating pins.

It only took me three tries get all three gear assemblies back in and shimmed correctly.

Turned out that the only real work that need to be done on the transfer case was replacement of the seals. There was no dirt or any sign of wear to any of the gears or bearings.

[Bob Carriere]

I took my 2 speed T-case apart seven times plus a spare one I took apart to compare and to make sure I had all the parts in the rigth place. I had s lot of wear on the yokes and to indure the new seals would be working well had to install 3 speedy sleeves..... some of the yokes had grooves worn on the surface.

I mounted each yoke in a 3 jaw chuck on a wood lathe and removed the raised grooves using a flat file while rotating at slow speed....polished with emery paper and installed the speedy sleeves with Lock tite.....so far so good.

What kind of lub do you intend to use....?

Bob
PS you should show everyone what kind of modified engine stand you are using ....

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

There was no known problem so it was a clean and inspect. The lub leaks from the seals was almost non existent. Only place that really leaked was down the spline shafts into the space between the drive shafts yoke and the transfer case yokes at the bolt flange. Think a light smear of gasket cement on reassembly should take care of that. All of the yoke shaft areas are in very good condition with non of the wear I found on the Pattern 12 which I did end up using speed sleeves on. But for this one I think just new seals will do the trick. As to lub probably 90/140 gear lub.

The biggest problem on the Pat 12 transfer case was oil leaking between the layers of the shims. I plan to repaint the outside of the assembled case with Por-15 while its completely clean, taking particular care to paint all the seems probably a couple of coats.

From the time lapse of disassembling it took me 11 hours to take it all apart and put it back together. The Pat 12 C60L need some bearings replaced so it took a lot longer to get the shim sets right. What really kept causing problems on that one was the thickness of the paper gaskets. This time measured the gaskets and made the new ones out of the same thickness paper. Could not get large sheets of actual gasket material so instead I've been using a very high grade printing stock that I got from a print shop in different weights which gives me the different thicknesses.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

"
Bob
PS you should show everyone what kind of modified engine stand you are using ...."

I think I've shared this before but can find which thread. But what Bob is referring to is over at http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/Tools.html which shows that special tool from the CMP manual Repair Stand J-1716 which a very serviceable adaptation can be made from most engine work stands.

I'm working on a new variation of this which I share soon. The reason that I take the time to figure out rigging and making lifting tools is that I just can't grab on an entire front end knuckle assembly compete with brake drum lift into place hold it one handed while I put in the bolts anymore.

Cheers Phil

[oztankboy]

Hi Phil in the land of US of A!

Oh yes its a great little truck to have and am realy got into decking it all out and finishing off all the small details. Like so many of these vehicles and more so with specialised ones its an on going exercise.

But it all pays off when it comes time to take it to a show and it becomes a display in its self.

Keep up the good work!
Phil...

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Over the last week or so I've been busy on the HUP over haul, disassembled and inspected transfer case, transmission, rear brake drums, and today started on the body.

I've clean up and added to my overhaul web pages http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Page%202.htm

No real problems with the transmission only real work was welding back a little material on the reverse lock out, which was surprisingly worn. One comment I will make to anybody planning to work on your transmission. Before you remove the cover put the transmission in the neutral position before you unbolt it and lift it off. Then take a good picture of the position of the shift forks and of the position of the gears. Saves time on reassembly because there is not a picture in most manuals.

Of the 4 rear wheel bearings only one needs to be replaced as the race is slightly pitted, only one roller has a mark on it. Plan to replace the race and the bearing as a set.


The pictures below though show today's project rolling the body on it's side in the bed of C60L.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Is your life insurance fully paid up...?

I know you are careful but still.... that is quite a task for one man...!!!

On the tranny..... usually takes me hours to re-assemble a tranny... and then I usually have a spare one to peek into for guidance but I usually get it right with the forks...... A while back a friend of Rob cameover to help Rob reassembled his tranny.... being a mechanic he had it reassembeld in a few hours. A few weekends later when we installed the tranny onto the bellhousing we found we could not shift gears....... had to remove the cover and realign the forks inside the two sliding shifting parts......

Taking your time has it's advantages....

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I've been looking for replacement bushings for the springs, spring shackles, and frame mounts for the HUP for a month or so, also wanted to replace the rear spring pins. Big problem I have had is everywhere I checked they had parts listed only by applications. Even searching on the web I was not finding what I needed in the form of dimensional listing. Found some but I didn't have much faith in their knowledge of what they were selling example finding one list where all the bushings had larger IDs than ODs. A couple of the really big bushing makers would make any size you wanted generally minimum of 100.

Anyway found a couple of promising old parts houses and to really see if they had the parts needed I did a small CAD drawing with photos of the parts. But before sent them out, I called the major heavy truck spring shop for the state and asked if they had size listings they responded sure so I sent them the drawing in an e-mail. They called back and said think we have everything you need so I went over this afternoon with all the bits. Guy takes me out to the parts bins 12 new brass bushings and 6 new rear spring pins total cost $92.68. Now that I have the part numbers I could actually look them up and discovered they are readily available. But the real surprise was the local heavy truck gave me shop price instead of the list. So the LHE bushings that list for $12.35 then sold them to me at $4.35.

The only not exact match was the pins which have a different pin bolt grove size. Which will be easy to work around.

So now I can start reassembling the chassis.

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi All... Guy takes me out to the parts bins 12 new brass bushings and 6 new rear spring pins total cost $92.68. Now that I have the part numbers I could actually look them up and discovered they are readily available. But the real surprise was the local heavy truck gave me shop price instead of the list. So the LHE bushings that list for $12.35 then sold them to me at $4.35. The only not exact match was the pins which have a different pin bolt grove size. Which will be easy to work around. So now I can start reassembling the chassis.

Cheers Phil

Hi Phil, I got my bushings and pins from Jim Carter Truck Parts - I am trying to find the invoice and the catalog. Good to hear that replacements are available locally. Keep up the very interesting work!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

Yes, I looked at Jim Carter but could not find the dimensions in their catalog to confirm the correct ones, which was one of the reasons I did the little drawing to send off to them and Obsolete Chev to see if they matched.

A point in passing, the pins that had brass/bronze bushings it was the bushings that were worn, on the rear where they used steel bushings it was the pins that got worn. As bushings are easier to find and pins are harder to find, I'm using bronze all the way around.

Cheers Phil

[Mike K]

Phil

Can I ask you: What's your opinion on the cast iron versus alloy pistons ?

I bought a set of aftermarket alloy 216 pistons years ago. I weighed them against the original cast iron set - the weight was only 25% less than the cast iron set.I was somewhat dissapointed .

MIKE

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Mike

A 25 % reduction in the reciprocating mass is significant particualrly at higher RPM.... but doubt you would notice a difference in your 216.

In racing circles anything you can do to reduce the weight of a metal mass that has to reverse direction of travel is important. Theoretically it should allow the engine to gain its RPM faster, rev faster while not iducing as much strian on the rods, bearings, crank, etc. and easier to pickup revs in gear down situation. Reduction in weight should make for a smoother engine and longer life. The special alloy piston may be more stable at various temperature..... expansion/shrink rate from cold to hot maybe better controlled....potentially quieter on a cold start. Piston skirts may cause less oval wear on bottom of cylinders.

But in a CMP at 40 mph 2800rpm... you should not feel much difference.

If I was rebuilding a 216 I would take advantage of the latest technology and buy the modern alloy version rather than hunt for NOS old stock.

My 0.05 worth........... Phil what are you using....?

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Mike and Bob

I've used both, Bob is correct that at the RPMs the 216, 235 or 261 are turning it probably is not a noticeable or even measurable difference. Equal weight however is more important the entire piston,rings,and rod assembly should be as nearly perfectly matched as possible.

Having said that I taken apart running 216s to discover that they were a total mix and match of parts. One engine in particular had several different types of valves, some of the pistons were over sized some weren't thing must have been assembled out of the scrap pile. But it ran fine. I got it as a spare engine its history is unknown. Right now it is in the Pattern 12 C60L seems to run fine. When the HUP is done the Pat 12 it will get the 235.

Now the 235 came out of a junk yard truck, with serious valve train problems due to an oil line failure of the line to the rocker arms. But it had cast iron pistons which the rebuild shop magnifluxed found them to be OK and reused them along with rods cylinders just needed honing.

The 261 they bored out .060 so it need new pistons and they replaced them with aluminum.

I don't think I would reuse any old cast iron pistons or even NOS with out have them checked for cracks. It's just two messy when they fail.

The only piston I have ever had catastrophically fail was on a J-3000 Jeep with a 350 Buick engine. The number one piston disappeared inside the engine at full throttle plowing snow. After a very load bang there was total silence, opened the hood the wrist pin and half a connecting rod was laying on one frame rail. On the other frame rail was a 4" chunk of the connecting rod. When we did the autopsy of the engine we could not find the piston all we found were lots of little bits of aluminum. Apparent cause piston striking a valve.

Next week the 216 out of the HUP comes apart to decide how much of an overhaul it will need. I suspect that if the pistons need to be replaced I will go with the aluminum as they seem to be easier to get from a known source.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

when I had my 261 rebuilt I read and it was confirmed by the engine shop manager that Chev 6 are seldom "balanced" as they are deemed "inherintly" balanced by the very design of the engine crank..... which apparently is not so for a V8.

In any event, for an extra $300 they did balance the 261 ... the focus was apparently getting each piston assembly....new piston, rings, rods, wrist pin, etc. within on gram of one another......

Doubt I will ever spin the engine fast enough to take full advantage of the process .... just hoping that it would make it smoother running even at lower speed.

Bob

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

.....the weight was only 25% less than the cast iron set. I was somewhat dissapointed.

The way I look at it, if I could cut 25% off my weight while jumping up and down as often as the pistons, I think I would notice the difference. I know my knees and muscles would love me.

[Phil Waterman]

Detergent or Non-Detergent Oil that is the question? Well from looks of this engine it is hard to say, this engine has been running straight 30 weight non-detergent oil for 66 years, without the sludge buildup that all the oil commercials say should be there. As mentioned before as far as I know this engine has never been fully apart in all that time. Of course given the amount of oil leakage that has developed over the last few years maybe all the sludge has been leaking out.

But I don’t think so I suspect that the true answer is that if you change to oil regularly and drain the oil when it is actually hot that there is very little left behind. The only place with anything you might call sludge or deposits was on the inside of the front valve train cover, which has some light crusting which may be the result of this likely being the coolest area of the engine.

The large military style filter probably is also responsible for keeping the oil clean. On Beauty my Pat 13 C60S which had the oil filter mounted hidden in the frame rail the filter had sludge but the engine was clear of sludge. On that engine I suspect that the oil got changed but the filter didn’t.

Before disassembling the engine I did some testing of how long it took for the engine to actually reach a uniform temperature, where water temp, bottom of the oil pan, oil filter and the oil pan above the level of the oil all reach the same temperature, as you can see at no load it takes a long time to get the engine fully up to temperature.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

In the Oil Pressure to Time chart you will note that only part way through did I discover that the oil pan had two very distinct temperatures Lower Pan which was the very bottom while what is labeled OilTemp pan was actually the side of the pan above the level of the oil. Also not how much of a temp difference there is in the radiator from top inlet to lower outlet basically a 100 degree difference. (see chart above)

Here are the photos of the valve gear train and cover.

[Phil Waterman]

Well I should have torn the engine down as soon as I took it out of the HUP, because I have a major problem a cracked head, (truck’s not mine) today I disassembled the head and discovered that the seat of the #3 cylinder is cracked. Number 3 cylinder is also the lowest compression at 95 lbs highest was 112 lbs so this one falls at 15% of the highest which would be questionable. So now I need to go looking for a new or already rebuilt head. I could use the 216 I took out of the C60S when I up engine to the 261 but I’d really rather keep the HUP as Original as possible which means overhauling the original engine and replacing the head.

Note the deposits on the intake valve this was found on all intake valves so the valve stems and valve guides have really been allowing oil to be suck in, what is a bit strange is how little smoke the engine was making.

Pictures below show the valves and the valve ports for cylinder # 3.

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

After 65+ years your head would be cracked as well.....

I know I have some...... can't guarantee the condition but will inspect closely with my glass eye.....

Do you have a particular "cast" head number you are looking for.....??

I can take it across the border for shipping to keep cost down.... or meet you half way.

My experience with sludge in engines was far more spectacular. Sludge to me is a light greyish ash like residue that you could scrape off with a putty knife..... maybe the cold weather here made it worst..... but no amount of detergent oil could ever remove it.

On a late 56-57 390 Ford engine..... we tried to cleanup the sludge inside the valve covers and removed the pan to scrap out deposits..... we literally flushed the engine.... in the frame... with gasoline to remove all the sludge
... installed new gaskets on the pan and valve cover.... engine never ran properly again.... was ticking and slapping like crazy and smoked like crazy..... I think the sludge actually was keeping the engine from leaking so much......

Your engine in comparison is very clean for 65 years of straight weight oil.

Let me know if we can help you.

Bob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

Yes, I know for sure that my head is cracked but that's a different story.

But back to the truck, Thanks for the offer on the head I'll get back to you. Because I did some searching last night may have found a NOS head according to the old Maple Leaf master parts book which covers 1938-1951 the one I've found should interchange OK. I had forgotten to bring the head casting numbers to confirm things though. This morning I'll get my casting numbers and engine numbers and give them a call.

I was surprised by how clean the inside of the engine was, wonder if part of that is the positive crankcase ventilation and the oil bath breather for the crank case.

The gunk on the tops of the intake valves and the gunk in the intake ports does say that oil leakage around the valve stems was a problem for a long time.

Cheers Phil

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Bob

Yes, I know for sure that my head is cracked but that's a different story.

But back to the truck, Thanks for the offer on the head I'll get back to you. Because I did some searching last night may have found a NOS head according to the old Maple Leaf master parts book which covers 1938-1951 the one I've found should interchange OK. I had forgotten to bring the head casting numbers to confirm things though. This morning I'll get my casting numbers and engine numbers and give them a call.

I was surprised by how clean the inside of the engine was, wonder if part of that is the positive crankcase ventilation and the oil bath breather for the crank case.

The gunk on the tops of the intake valves and the gunk in the intake ports does say that oil leakage around the valve stems was a problem for a long time.

Cheers Phil

Phil..
I would be tempted to fire that head in the forge and weld up those cracks and re machine the seat..(At least get the machine shop to do it)
That crack does not go through to the water jacket and for the miles that you would put on the truck would last forever,..
With 95 PSI compression,you are close to good to go..

[ahleeds]

I would have to agree with Alex on heating that head up very hot then welding with your nickel/cast welding rod . then a very long cooling period.

I was also going to mention my experience of looking for low detergent 30wt engine oil last summer. Basicly it was impossible to find except what was labled commpressor oil or pressure washer oil. If it is labled HD30 wt then it was high detergent 30 wt . not heavy duty 30wt.

my 10 cents

Anthony