Modified Conventional Pattern Trucks

[Ganmain Tony]

Good show Cliff!

Do you know what library in Adelaide Cliff? - I'd be prepared to go to the trouble of making some inquiries and seeing what I can dig up.

Would make interesting reading (to me anyway)........

May be its best to start with the AWM. Do we know anyone over there now who is as enthusiastic as Mike Cecil was.?

[cliff]

Is Mike no longer with the AWM?

I know it is an Adelaide Libary I think I have the exact one in my files which have not been loaded back onto my repaired computer yet but I'll find out for you and post it here in the next few days.

[cliff]

http://www.catalog.slsa.sa.gov.au:80/record=b2182756~S1

Tony I think this is the records.

[Bill Kreiner]

Ford historian Jim Wagner sent me a photo of a 1942 G8T. It's included here. It has the 6-stud wheels, as Hanno pointed out the G8T should have, since it's more militarized than the 2G8T. The date on the photo is 10-20-1942, showing it was already in production in 1942, in addition to 1943 and 1944 (and 1945??).

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...b428df8f5g.jpg

[Bill Kreiner]

This is from Technical Manual: Standard Military Motor Vehicles, 1 September 1943. It's a 2 GT. Yet another variant? It has the 6-stud wheels. (I've been finding loads of civilian-sheetmetal U.S. military trucks in here! I'm glad I remembered I had this book.)

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...4b5236a96g.jpg

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/...171ddcac6g.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bill Kreiner

Ford historian Jim Wagner sent me a photo of a 1942 G8T. It's included here. It has the 6-stud wheels, as Hanno pointed out the G8T should have, since it's more militarized than the 2G8T. The date on the photo is 10-20-1942, showing it was already in production in 1942, in addition to 1943 and 1944 (and 1945??).

Great photo, Bill!

But I am still hestiating to differentiate between the G8T and 2G8T as being more militarised or not. I am inclined to stick to what I stated earlier: the G8T and 2G8T are the same truck, but from different model years. Take a look at this Flathead Model ID chart, and you will note the 1G8T is the 1941 model 6-cyl. 90-hp 158"-wb 1½ Ton Truck, the 2G8T the 1942 model with the same specs, then it disappears from the list. So either they did not build any in 1943-1945, or more likely the specs were not changed from the 1942 model year. It re-appears in 1946 and 1947 as 6G8T and 7G8T respectively. So following Ford's model designations, there is no such thing as a "1942 G8T". I think the G8T designation is used as generic designation for the 6-cyl. 90-hp 158"-wb 1½ Ton Truck, as there were no model changes after the 1942 model year.
Could you check the above with Mr. Wagner?

Most likely the differences in degree of militarisation was something that was specified in each contract, rather than being model year specific. See the entry in the Data Book of Wheeled Vehicles: Army Transport 1939-1945 (the British equivalent of the US Technical Manual: Standard Military Motor Vehicles). It suggests the trucks delivered under this order had different specs from the standard Ford 1.5-ton truck to uprate it's load capacity to three tons ("special tyre equipment, reinforced frame and auxiliary springs").

Regards,
Hanno

PS: Maybe we should move the discussion on the US Ford to the thread US-built Ford 1942-model trucks in Allied service.

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Under S.M.2451 the UK were delivered with US-built Ford 3 ton 4x2 6-cyl. 158" wb chassis with stake bodies (source: Data Book of Wheeled Vehicles: Army Transport 1939-1945).

(click on image for large size scan)

[Bill Kreiner]

Hanno,

My gosh, this is getting confusing! Firstly, let me say that I think you may be right in speculating that degree of militarization is stipulated by each contract. That would be quite logical, indeed. Thanks for providing that scan. Also, perhaps it would be a good idea to move this portion of the thread as you mentioned, since it appears to have veered into U.S. 1942-style Fords.

Thanks also for providing the link to the Flathead Model ID Chart. It seems to answer a lot of questions. For example, the 2GT I posted from my book looks to be a 134" truck, and it looks like there were 1941, 1946, and 1947 versions, too. I assume that if any were produced in 1943-1945, they'd still use the 2GT designation, though I'm not sure. I'll ask Jim Wagner.

Now, as you pointed out, there are the following 158" types: 1G8T (1941), 2G8T (1942 or 1942-1945), 6G8T (1946), and 7G8T (1947). You're suggesting that perhaps the G8T designation does not refer to a different truck, but is a generic term for that type of truck produced during 1943-1945 since the specs would have been unchanged from 1942. That does seem plausible. But I wonder if perhaps the designation was officially changed to this during the war, after 1942. Jim does refer to the G8T in his Ford truck book as a 1943-1944 model for the military. I will consult his book, and that of Tim O'Callaghan, to see what other data is available.

I've also sent our questions to Jim via email, as you asked. If he doesn't have the answers immediately, he will be able to research, as he volunteers at the Benson Ford Research Center, from where I obtained the Ford production and delivery charts I sent you. It may take a bit of time, but he'll be able to supply us with data.

I'm eager to get to the bottom of this!

Kind regards,

Bill

[Bill Kreiner]

Here is Jim's helpful reply. It seems G8T is the true designator for the military (government) wartime truck. The others with "G" are non-government models, some of which obviously were impressed into service:

Bill,

We'll have to wait and see just what SAE does before we can close the door on the book catalog. It's also possible that you'll get the 2010 edition since I could not be sure if the 2011 is available.

With respect to the Ford truck question(s) you have I believe the problem lies with the letter "G." When a World War II era Ford model designation began with "G" it was a government-oriented product, vehicle or otherwise: GAA—Ford Tank Engine, GPA—Amphibian Jeep, GP—command reconnaisance car (jeep), G8T, the militarized civilian truck you mentioned, GPW—the Willys jeep built by Ford plus many others. There is a listing of all these codes at the Benson Ford Research Center and as I recall a "G" number/letter was even assigned to the B-24 Liberator bomber.

The "other G" is the non-government designator for the 225.9-cid L-head six-cylinder engine that Ford introduced in May 1941 and was assigned according to the company's civilian model ID system: 1GT (1941), 2GT (1942 only), 6GT (1946), and 7GT (1947) are all 134-inch-wheelbase conventional trucks. The letter "T" stood for 1 1/2-ton conventional truck while "W" was used for cab-overs, which did not use the six-cylinder engine until 1948. The addition of a number (e.g. 1G8T or 2G4T) indicated indicated a wheelbase other than the basic or most common (for 1 1/2-ton trucks it would have been 134-inch, 158-inch and 194-inch [school bus chassis] being the exceptions). This explains why the 1G8T of 1941, the 2G8T of 1942, the 6G8T of 1946 and 7G8T of 1947 were 158-inch civilian trucks. This system was even used for the Lincoln cars of that era: 16H was used for the 1941 Lincoln-Zephyr and 1941 Lincoln Continental which had the basic 125-inch wheelbase (not considered special) while the 138-inch-wheelbase 1941 Lincoln-Custom was Model 168H. "1", being 1941 model, "6" being small (292-cid) V-12 engine and "H" being the primary Zephyr-heritage Lincoln.

Ford's model designation system from the original V-8 (Model 18) through 1951 (1952 trucks) was quite logical but one does need to understand how it works. The coded model identification system (also used for part numbering) was revised in 1952 and became horrendously complicated before being abandoned after 1958.

Jim