Modified Conventional Pattern Trucks

[Bill Kreiner]

Here is Jim's helpful reply. It seems G8T is the true designator for the military (government) wartime truck. The others with "G" are non-government models, some of which obviously were impressed into service:

Bill,

We'll have to wait and see just what SAE does before we can close the door on the book catalog. It's also possible that you'll get the 2010 edition since I could not be sure if the 2011 is available.

With respect to the Ford truck question(s) you have I believe the problem lies with the letter "G." When a World War II era Ford model designation began with "G" it was a government-oriented product, vehicle or otherwise: GAA—Ford Tank Engine, GPA—Amphibian Jeep, GP—command reconnaisance car (jeep), G8T, the militarized civilian truck you mentioned, GPW—the Willys jeep built by Ford plus many others. There is a listing of all these codes at the Benson Ford Research Center and as I recall a "G" number/letter was even assigned to the B-24 Liberator bomber.

The "other G" is the non-government designator for the 225.9-cid L-head six-cylinder engine that Ford introduced in May 1941 and was assigned according to the company's civilian model ID system: 1GT (1941), 2GT (1942 only), 6GT (1946), and 7GT (1947) are all 134-inch-wheelbase conventional trucks. The letter "T" stood for 1 1/2-ton conventional truck while "W" was used for cab-overs, which did not use the six-cylinder engine until 1948. The addition of a number (e.g. 1G8T or 2G4T) indicated indicated a wheelbase other than the basic or most common (for 1 1/2-ton trucks it would have been 134-inch, 158-inch and 194-inch [school bus chassis] being the exceptions). This explains why the 1G8T of 1941, the 2G8T of 1942, the 6G8T of 1946 and 7G8T of 1947 were 158-inch civilian trucks. This system was even used for the Lincoln cars of that era: 16H was used for the 1941 Lincoln-Zephyr and 1941 Lincoln Continental which had the basic 125-inch wheelbase (not considered special) while the 138-inch-wheelbase 1941 Lincoln-Custom was Model 168H. "1", being 1941 model, "6" being small (292-cid) V-12 engine and "H" being the primary Zephyr-heritage Lincoln.

Ford's model designation system from the original V-8 (Model 18) through 1951 (1952 trucks) was quite logical but one does need to understand how it works. The coded model identification system (also used for part numbering) was revised in 1952 and became horrendously complicated before being abandoned after 1958.

Jim

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

By the same token, the Ministry of Supply ordered Dagenham-built W-prefixed models, for 'War Department', although the jury is still out whether the next digit or letter was an 'O' or '0', i.w. WO for War Office or W0 for War Office 1940 Model...E was the usual Dagenham identifier in front of the model designation.

Stan Ellis sent to Oshawa in November 1939 drawings of the vehicles developed by Ford at Dagenham for the War Office. The quantity of vehicles then under contract was:
W0C1 Personnel Carrier and Wireless: 2,000 units
W0T2: 3,000 units
W0T1: 1,000 units
W0T3: nil

However W0T3 and W0T4 had been replaced by WOT5, which was a six-wheeled “Sussex” load carrier, and it was anticipated that 2,000 units approximately were to be ordered. There is no comment as to whether the Department of National Defence thought that Canada could have supplied these.

For clarification, W0C1 was a Ministry of Supply order Model 01C, which were in fact supplied by Ford, USA, as a 1940 Model with 30 h.p. V-8: there were two sets of orders for W0C1 from Dagenham, placed in November and December 1939 with completion by the summer of 1940.

W0T1 was a 6-wheeled 143½-inch truck chassis with 42 7/16-inch “Sussex” bogie conversion by County Commercial Cars Limited of Fleet, Hampshire, for the Ministry of Supply and Air Ministry for the RAF, with 30 h.p. V-8 engine [W0T1 was s.w.b., W0T1A l.w.b., the R.A.F. using them for barrage balloon winches etc., e.g. Engine # BB18-57147365. Which proves that they had US engines and not Canadian- (Windsor) or Dagenham-built.

W0T2 was a 15-cwt. 4-wheeled G.S. infantry truck in W0T2A-F versions for the Ministry of Supply. with 30 h.p. V-8.

W0T3 was it seems a standard chassis version of W0T1, in versions A-E, with 143½-inch wheelbase and either 1-ton or 30-cwt. capacities.

W0T4 and 5 may have never been proceeded with into production, but W0T6 was a 3-ton Fordson 4 x 4 and W0T8 a Fordson 30-cwt. 4 x 4 load carrier with 30 h.p. V-8 in either case

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno may be interested to read the following which I have eventually found:

On 10th November 1939 StanEllis wrote once more to Colonel N.O. Carr, the letter being received in Ottawa via sea on 20 December. Prints had been sent as follows:
Canopy for 14-cwt. A.T. [Anti-Tank] Vehicles D.D. (V) 462/6
Box body and Canopy for 3-ton 6-wheeled truck S(V) 479, S(V) 175
F.B.E. Equipment-Lorry Body- D.D. (V) 337
Machinery Body D.D.-M-2306
Breakdown Body D.D. (V) 278, S(V) 337 and 343 and D.D. (V) 429, S(V) 343
Mounting details of lorry (technical) bodies were included as well. The significance of this letter is that Ellis went on to say that with the exception of the 15-cwt. canopy details, the other information would not be very useful

“..in view of the effort now being made to have the War Office furnish complete vehicles or bodies only for mounting on Canadian Chassis. This entire matter of technical vehicles and equipment is being pressed for a solution but in view of the acute shortage of vehicles and machinery no definite plan can be established until more is known of the War Office attitude towards the use of Canadian chassis”.

This reflects the W.D. belief in the supply of the Canadian 1st Division from British sources just as the Division had landed and were establishing themselves. On 25th September 1939, the High Commissioner in London, the Hon. Vincent Massey had written to the then Minister of Supply, Dr. Leslie Burgin, to presumably acquaint him of the offer by G.M. concerning the Southampton Plant[1] The Minister replied to the High Commissioner referring to the letter, and commented that the position was now that Colonel Loggie had

“agreed in principle that the Canadian Force will be equipped in Canada with vehicles generally interchangeable with those already in this Service, and that these will probably be built by General Motors, Canada, and Fords, Canada. So far as production capacity in this country is concerned, no difficulty is expected to arise after January next, when capacity should overtake our requirements”.[2]

Although this was meant to affirm that Canadian supply was not required, it also signified the belief that Canadian requirements would be met from British production, including for the 2nd Division which was being raised at that time. The official history states that in the early stages of the war, the British war effort was more or less self-sufficient. Indeed, whilst U.S. support was uncertain and British resources not yet fully taken-up, self-sufficiency was taken for granted more-or-less. However, from the beginning Canada had figured in British calculations of combatant strength and in British programmes of supply. The 1st Canadian Division was equipped almost entirely in the U.K. and doubts about the ability of Canadian industry to deliver goods quickly and shortage of dollars combined to keep British munitions programmes in Canada within very narrow bounds

[1] 25 September 1939: Letter: Hon. Vincent Massey, High Commissioner for Canada, London, to Dr. L. Burgin, Minister of Supply, File H.Q. 38-72-328 Vol. 2, C.N.A., ibid.

[2] 12 October 1939: Letter: Dr. L. Burgin to Hon. Vincent Massey, File H.Q. 38-72-328 Vol. 2, C.N.A., ibid.

However, there must have been a mistrust of Canadian abilities as the report of the Imperial General Staff of May 1940 stated in succinct terms that Britain required on American support if she was to avoid defeat after the fall of France.

I can only surmise that someone in the corridors of Whitehall realised that Ottawa would accept Sterling for Canadian purchases. Even so the Treasury Foreign Exchange Requirements Committee minutes show that there was a recurring belief that the British should order from the US, even after all of the French orders that had not been delivered were diverted to British account.

[Bill Kreiner]

Thanks, David, for those explanations! Incidentally, (sorry to digress for a moment) do you have any data on the Daganham staff car, the WOA1 (W0A1)? I've read it was built from 1941-1944, taking over from the civilian V8-62 model, but my production documents don't list it separately anywhere. It must be lumped in the Dagenham totals.

Here are scans of two pages relating to the G8T from Tim O'Callaghan's book Ford in the Service of America. Sorry about the slightly blurred inner-margin text. The book has a glue-only binding, and I didn't want to crack it by pressing the book too hard on the scanner glass.

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[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The data for every Dagenham MofS vehicle to end 1942 was set out in a model listing with crude darwings, plus specs. that I have a Xerox of. It included the staff cars and all the small vans, cars, etc. There are some contracts mentioned by the way as well, including those for some CMPs, which were assembled by Dagenham to British order under British contracts. But that's another matter and not relevant here!

In addition to the Model 01, and 01A (Standard and Deluxe respectively) Dagenham also assembled to Ministry of Supply contract the Models W0A1 and W01A1 Staff Cars, which were Model 62 cars, modified with the 30 h.p. V-8 instead of the “meagre” 22 h.p., the first being equipped with 9 x 13 tyres, the latter 6.50 x 16 tyres.

The W0A2 was a Utility Car with a Station Wagon body with 9.00 x 13 tyres and the 30 h.p. engine again, and not the 22 h.p.

[Bill Kreiner]

Thank you, David! Maybe I'll start another thread on that, with the data I have.

In the appendix of the O'Callaghan book, the G8T is listed as having been produced from September 1942 through May 1945, to the tune of 77,915. I wonder why the appendix figure is slightly at variance with the one given in the text (77,604).

I had forgotten to check this book first with regard to the G8T!

[Bill Kreiner]

Ford Government Models, kindly supplied by Jim Wagner.


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[Sergey Egorov]

Originally Posted by Bill Kreiner

Ford Government Models, kindly supplied by Jim Wagner.


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