surviving T16s

[andrew honychurch]

what about this serial number then/??

universal_carrier_t16_17.jpg
http://www.asphm.com/vehicules/unive...ier_t16_17.jpg

point being, Adrian, that this original plate has a T number not a TD. I think there is some misunderstandings going on here! Not sure what is correct and what each nomenclature means?

[ajmac]

As Adrian said the war department number, for anything tracked, the 'T' number, originated in England, when an order was placed a block of numbers was allocated to that contract, I have seen some of the Loyd Carrier contract cards held by the tank museum earlier in the year, there may be T16 cards too. What does nigels carrier book volume 2 say, his section on loyds in volume 1 has all the WD number lists for loyds.
The data plate would have had the WD number stamped on it as well as a vehicle serial number which was unique to the manufacturer, the T16 parts book refers to change points using the vehicle serial number. It goes on to say:
vehicle serial numbers were first assigned to each hull when fabricated rather than the final assembled vehicle, this number prefixed by FS should be stamped on the transmission and final drive housing. After hull number 1000 the vehicles were assigned a serial number without prefix or suffix, it was stamped on the top upper right hand front plate also transmission case and final drive. So you should be able to have a stab at your vehicle serial number my havin a look in these places...obviously be careful of parts that may have been replaced in service.

I presume the TD part is perhaps a corruption of the T number, I have seen a Loyd data plate stamped CTxxxx, which doesn't exist in the wartime contract cards, however the vehicle fitted the bill for being the number without the C. Like all of these things not as black and White as it first seems :-)

[horsa]

This is why I thought the number on the data plate and in paint on the vehicle was the British census number. They were built under contract in the USA for England and the "T" or "TD" number was painted while in the USA on the three designated locations as specified by the contract.

No USA vehicle has a T or TD code so this must have been done based on vehicle contract orders that had been placed already. And we've seen examples of the T-16 with the white vehicle numbers like mine had, in the same three locations. Some had TD prefix like mine and some only had T. Postwar examples the Swiss bought were painted over, but the original numbers are still etched into the hull under the paint.

My understanding is the Welbikes build in the UK had their numbers with the "C" prefix painted at the production factory based on contracts so it would stand to reason the same thing happened with the T-16. Since the U.S. army wasn't getting the vehicles, anyone doing record keeping could simply have gone by the vehicle's Ford serial number which is stamped with the date on the front armour. And that number has nothing to do with the sequence of the T or TD number.

In terms of your question on towing assignment Andrew, I have no idea. The towing assembly and wading skirt squares were definitely added after the vehicles got to the UK. My towing assembly and several others I've seen were welded directly over the rear vehicle markings. And the markings on the side were partially obscured by the front wading skirt squares and so got repainted lower down on the side after the modifications were done. Odds are there was some minor specification difference in a vehicle ordered as a tug, but so far we haven't identified a trend in the variations in parts encountered.

Shot attached has been posted before and shows a field of T-16s in the UK that have not been modified with towing assemblies or wading fixtures. Note the numbers and prefix on the rear lower armor of the vehicles that haven't been converted into tents. And the other shot has a T-16 with numbers in the same format as my carrier had with dots behind the vehicle prefix. It only has a "T." prefix but the space is there for a "D." before the number begins. And the third shot shows another T-16 with similar spacing. But they were not as conscientious about doing a good job of painting over the "D." which makes you wonder what else was going on back then.

Note: These are wartime shots and not surviving T-16s so it's a bit of overlap with the other old T-16 message thread. But they are needed for reference here I think.

[ajmac]

I like the 1st photo, note all the Loyd Carriers in the distance!

[andrew honychurch]

well its a bit of mystery. Interesting to note on your photos David, that the vehicle in service in Europe does not have the wading blocks welded on and I assume that it doesnt have the tow equipment either, which may mean that these were added after they had been in service? As for the TD and |T designation, my vehicle is a latish one, June 1944 manufacture from recollection, I think all the vehicles I have seen so far with TD are earlier than this. So, I wonder whether there was a change in designation at some stage. I am sure it will be possible to find out for sure what the difference relates to. Someone needs to go digging at the Tank Museum!

[horsa]

Yep, the answer is sure to be buried out there somewhere in the archives.

I'd also noticed both of those carriers in service didn't have the wading skirt squares on the hulls. Not sure about the towing assembly though. The latest TD marked hull I've come across was built 3-1944. So far the latest hull with wading squares is Ray's which has an illegible double digit month in 1944. So the last quarter of that year either way and the serial number is 12683 making it almost 7000 units after mine was built.

Canadian wartime records from February 1944 indicated all of their T-16 vehicle allotment would be for 4.2-inch mortars and towing 6-pdr A/T guns. But a shortage for the Normandy invasion had them temporarily change that to all T-16s being assigned as 4.2-inch mortar carriers. Once production caught up again, then they resumed assignments as gun tugs and likely other roles as well. So far no records of British assignments have been located that I know of. It would be nice to find history on your carrier Andrew, since it stayed in the UK. Mine and most now in the USA were part of the British vehicles sold to the Swiss after the war. So it is unknown if they were British or Canadian during the war. The only trends with them are they all have been TD or T marked and all had the wading skirt squares and towing assembly on them, regardless of the number prefix.

[andrew honychurch]

indeed, I would like to find out some history of mine. I was told that it was one of a batch of very low mileage T16s that got sold to Pounds of Portsmouth a well known scrap metal dealer here in the UK. The carriers were standing on an airfield in the midlands as storage and were supposedly driven to the scrapyard. It shows 900 miles on the speedo, so that would tally. I did find that there is some sand coloured paint in places and indeed some realy golden desert sand as well. My guess is it may have been prepared for Suez and been there and then brought back to the UK and put in store. I will one day try to visit the tank museum and discover more.