Books photos about executed POWS June 1944

SEAN: Sorry...the linkdidn't connect me...
I gotthe following message...Carman

Error connecting to database
Possible reason:
script incorrectly run; check all variables
Sorry...please try again later or
Contact : GeoNames@NRCan.gc.ca

[Snowtractor]

http://geonames.nrcan.gc.ca/search/search_e.php and then put in Smith and select all and choose Manitoba.

Sean

Sean...Thank you for the last post!

Manitoba `Water' names:

I found 9 (NINE!)listings
named affter `SMITH'
I think I'll just have to be patient
and wait for feedback on requests
for info. I'll definately let
you all know the name and place
when I know it, and if ever any of
you `visit there' I hope you'll
think of my Uncle.

Carman

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Story of the Winnipeg Rifles here..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...&category=1127

EBAY: thanks for the link!!!

Fortunately I have never in my life
owned a credit card so can't purchase
anything that requires one. IF I had one tho,
I couldn't resist using it!

Unfortunately...they do come in handy when
your vehicle that earns your income breaks
down completely and you can't even rent a car! sub-contract delivery needs a vehicle


Such is the way it be's.

Thanks again...C

[Ryan Toews]

Hello Carman,

"Geographical Names of Manitoba" lists Edward Smith Lake as having been named in 1995 after Rifleman Edward Smith, RWR. The lake is in the vicinity of Flin Flon, MB, to the north of Kississing Lake.

As well, if you are looking for info from the National Archives in Ottawa you may want to first phone to find out what procedures you need to follow. Their toll-free number is 1-866-578-7777. Hope this helps.

Ryan Toews

Ah Ryan...I thank you so much!!!
You just gave me a lot of happiness
with your post... I know a lot quicker
than I would have! You know where
I'll go visiting if I can ever swing a visit
to Manitoba!

Take care,

Carman

Hi. I received a letter confirming that
National Archives received my letter of
request for records. I called the toll
free
number to enquire about $payment.

CHARGES: vary according to size of file.
Could cost anywhere from a little and up to
$40...rough estimate. They'll send an
INVOICE for cost and payment.

PHOTOS: If there are any photos in the
files they WILL be copied and sent as well
(request them in the original letter of request
to them)

WAIT: expect 6 to 8 weeks wait for records.
Special circumstance I think they can `rush'.

========
War Amps could not find an individual photo
of my Uncle to show in `Take No Prisoners'.
I assume they checked his personnel files too
so I may not get a photo from there.
========

CONDUCT UNBECOMING: AMAZING in not only telling
what happened, but also giving the background info on both the Canadian 3rd Division and The 12th SS Hitler Youth and their `meeting up'.

I keep thinking about how my Uncle and the men with him had got so far from the landing on Juno... they must have been very lucky, and very skilled to have survived and made it as far from the beach as they did.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Carman wrote: "WAIT: expect 6 to 8 weeks wait for records. Special circumstance I think they can 'rush'"

Hi Carman;

Them 'Rush' :

You do realize that this is the 'Federal Government' your dealing with. Their motto is "You want it when.......Ya Right.....when I finish my coffee or when H*** freezes over........depending on which comes last...........than I might look for the file".

Hopefully they do get up off their 'blank' and send it soonest.

Good Luck!

Cheers

QUESTION: in WW2 didn't every service
person have a photo ID with their files?

Thanks:

Hi.

EVERYONE:

Mr. Gerald F. Holm
Provincial Toponymist
Manitoba Geographical Names Program
Manitoba Conservation
1007 Century Street
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3H 0W4
Fax: (204) 945-1365
Email: GHolm@gov.mb.ca

There are still many many families
and next of kin that these people (above)
are trying to locate in order to tell
them that their `Fallen Soldier' relative
that has been honoured by having Lakes and
Rivers named after them in honour of their
service and memory.
There is a CERTIFICATE to be presented
to the next of kin of all of these men.

If you, or someone you know, has lost a
relative to war, please get in touch with
the man/address/email listed above so that
the next of kin can be informed and given this
certificate.

If the man above only deals with those
Soldiers of Manitoba, then I'm sure he can direct
relatives to the correct people to find out
if their relatives also were so honoured.

Please...pass this info on!

PS: I'm the only relative of my Uncle who
Mr Holm has had contact with so far. If I am
not eligible as next of kin (I have an elder
sister and two elder cousins...who is oldest, I don't know) Mr Holm was VERY glad to hear from
me...as he will be to hear from anyone else
he's been trying to locate.

Take care...and to all those out there who have, or, will have, loved ones serve this time round... my prayers and heart go with you all that you return home to your families.

Prayer can never hurt and always helps, even in the simple positiveness of feeling. Its felt... and thats a good thing. Eh?

New book ... APRIL 2003 titled: A PLACE of HONOUR: see info on website:

http://www.gov.mb.ca/conservation/ge...r-e/index.html

(Your uncle is mentioned in the publication.)

This is the book about the Fallen soldiers
who had lakes/etc named for them.

Hi. Nothing like a yappy woman to keep
a conversation going even if it is all
by herself

The news...wow. I just watch it play out
and wonder what next, and when will it end.
----

Well, am trying to find out the hows and why's
of how my Uncle's situation and classification ?)was a mystery until so recently. I'm not sure who to ask? Can anyone advise me on this? Where would I get answers?

Spoke with one of my sisters
tonite. She, like my other relatives, only know,
Uncle Eddie was a POW in WW2 and never came home.
They know NOTHING of June 8, 1944,or that he was one of the soldiers that the big war crimes case was about. Tomorrow my sister will be calling me again and I'll be telling her some of what I've discovered. Oiy. Help. Grant me some grace hey?

You know, I wonder, how many families of the 156 men murdered know nothing? : The `powers that be' MUST have made attempts to inform families even so many years AFTER WW2? Or am I, yet again, blindly naive?

Any help or comments on any of this?

Thanks.

[Bill Alexander]

Interesting thread. In reference to the records search at National Archives, it is also possible to hire a private researcher to do the work. Advantage, they cull the file and only send what is central to the soldier's career. Soldier's records often contain a lot of superfluous documentation or replication and sometimes even blank forms reside in the file. One file I requested had a dental record that had on small notation, not important to the soldier's story, on a form four or five pages long. The researcher can avoid these items and save some costs. They are also usually faster.

Hi BILL: Thank you for your response. I'm glad you find the thread interesting. There's a lot of amazing info in it. AND... war NEVER ends!

I can't believe that so much info about my Uncle is fairly NEW info! And you know, it may sound silly to some, but my Uncle, for some reason, has always been a very large information gap in my life (and my family's) waiting to be filled with information to replace the `silence'. In a way, it's almost voyeuristic,, but even little things like, gee, he had a tooth pulled, is meaningful :-) Besides, I would imagine that hiring a researcher would cost a lot more because I'd have to pay for the time, as well as the copying. My small disability just doesn't cut it I'm interested in everything that may be in the file because its a very personal family thing I'm doing. Not here to gather data to do a military history, but rather a family history with all of his military history because it was so much a part of his life...and especially his death. In other words, this is personal. It would take a military historian and researcher to do "Rifleman Edward Smith of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles aka Little Black Devils murdered by 12th SS Panzer Division Hitler Youth under orders of Wilhelm Mohnke who was never brought to trial" justice on that level. I've nether the knowledge, nor the talent to pull that off. It's one helluva story (I also know there were a whole helluva a lot of stories to tell from that war alone)

I did a search on `Canadian War Heroes' and a link came up for a plane that was found (Holland? Finland?) along with the bodies of soldiers who had gone down with it in WW2 and had been missing all these years. A `farmer?' had a `recollection about seeing a plane going down in a field (bog) back in WW2 and finally mentioned it. Amazing Grace hey? How good for the families to have closure! I believe the family went overseas for a proper burial and ceremony.

I think the moral of that little story is that if there's a skeleton anywhere, it's bones will rattle loud enough to draw attention to its story, and the story will finally be known.

If I could have a wish filled right now, it just would be really nice to be able to visit my Uncle Eddie...in France. Takehim some flowers and finally say... RIP.

Oh...if I don't shorten my posts I might get kicked out of here (sorr-eeee)

Hi Carman, Art Johnson here with a little correction for you. Wilhelm Mohnke was not the commander of the 12th SS Panzer Grenadiere Division (HJ). Major General Fritz Witt was the commander until he was killed on 14th June 1944. Kurt Myer replaced him.
Mohnke commanded the 26th SS Panzer-Grenadiere Regiment (Brigade). He returned to Berlin in 1944 to be part of Hitler's personal guard. He was captured by the Russians in 1945 and detained till 1955. Monhke returned to Germany to the small town of Barsbuttel near Hamburg and worked as a dealer in small trucks and trailers. He was still alive in 1996.
Kurt Meyer was captured by Belgian partisans on the 6th of September 1944. He was tried and convicted of War Crimes in 1945 and sentenced to death. Major General Chris Volkes the Canadian Army Commander in Germany at the time commuted the sentence to life in prison. Myer was sent to Canada and served five years in Dorchester Prison in New Brunswick. He was then returned to Germany to serve out the remainder of his time in a British Military prison. Kurt Meyer was released in 1954 and died in 1961.
Kurt Myer openly professed his loyalty to Hitler and the Nazi Party even after the war. The SOB should have been hung as should Mohnke and all those other SS types from 1933.

[Snowtractor]

In 1956 , I believe, Meyer had the gall to show up to a Canadian base in Germany selling cleaning products . A retired , would have been private then, fellow I go visit for coffee recognised him and showed him what the business end of a sten looks like up close and personal . He marched him off for detention and questioning though he was released later. The hatred for Meyer ran pretty strong in the Cdn armed forces even 12 years later in a different generation of troops...as it should have.
Sean

Hi!

ART: Thank you for your corrections regards Mohnke... my uderstanding is that my Uncle and the men with him were murdered under direct orders of Mohnke (altho Mohnke was in charge of the 26th not the 12th Div. There is also a mention in `Conduct Unbecoming' (I hope I remember this correctly)of Mohnke having done the recruiting of the first Hitler Youth given the name `26th' Division as they were chosen from boys all born in the year of 1926? I have to read more about that. My impression is that those Nazi Hitler Youth never had a chance of becoming anything but what they became because they were used and abused into creation by fanatics etc. They, in my eyes, were inhuman, like their creators. Oh man... I can't go here right now.

The year you say Meyer was released was the year I was born. The year Meyer died was the year Edward's mother, my granny (I was 6) died too. I had that conversation with my sister tonite, She's 7 years older than me. She remembered how extremely depressed Granny was especially on Remembrance Day every year. My grandfather, and grannies father, died together in a housefire in 1945, and I have no doubt that when I find out the date of that fire, that it will coincide with grief and alcohol. I'm sorry...this is just all coming out here.

Sean...talk to you later Darlin'

Carman

Whats so damned wrong is that had things worked normally once my Uncle and the others were `caught' they'd ideally should have gone to POW camps and come home when the war was done. Thats the problem with evil...it knows not humanity.

Hi. I'm back. Not done yet! All of this is just so ... incredible. There is just soooo much I do NOT get or understand about many things to do with my Uncle. Yes people... I have some very strong feelings about all of thse things we've been `talking about' in here. Very strong. A lot I choose not to express because it feels so futile and too late. I'm here from the perspective of a family member who wants to know what the hell happened and what the hell didn't that should have when it came to dealing with those responsible and accountable for the unjustifiable murders?

It's very frustrating to care, wanna know, wanna ask questions and get all of them answered, but very few places to get them. This site, you folks, are a very rare lot for someone like me and I sure wish we were neighbors so we could talk in person because many of the real answers seem to be coming from `you-all'!!!

I'm a civvie who knows nothing about something that seems to be so damned socially taboo because `It's history. It's over. It's war. Don't be morbid. Why do you want to know? You're sick to want to know. You're weird. Etc' The topic of the war and my Uncle is faced with a hostile environment `out there'. So I guess it's shut up, or find a `friendly environment'

You all know I can't shut up by now...don't yah??? (grin) But....

Good Lord... what must it be like to be a vet facing the world? or what must it be like to walk down a street in Uniform? Especially with current events in and about Iraq. I wonder about those things everyday, especially now.

Should Meyer and Mohnke and all those others have been hanged, shot, denied life because of their deeds? I hate to inflict death on anyone... but in this case, try me. I think I've found my inner warrior who would do the deed and feel it to be more than justified.

If only we could isolate the like-minded inhumane b@$#%^rds from the innocents and civillians before we relieved the world of them. That's the hard part, eh. AND I guess that's where the human sacrifice for the good comes in.

My Uncle certainly did right by humanity. I'm proud of him. Now if only the powers that be could have given like for like to my Uncle.

Nite all.

Was surfing while waiting for my middle of the nite snack to cook...found this link again and thot you all might find it interesting:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/facts.html


By the way: MOHNKE: I saw the year 2002 mentioned as the year that MOHNKE died (in a post somewhere else)

GEOFF: I hope it's ok for me to have posted this from another site? I'll delete it if it's not cool. C

I bookmarked the site where I found this info if anyone wants the link. Just say so. There are more names and infoin it.

MOHNKE, Wilhelm (RK; DKiG)
(1911 - 2001)
SS-Brigadeführer und Generalmajor der Waffen-SS:
Born: 15. Mar. 1911 in Lübeck.
Died:
NSDAP-Nr.: 649 684/SS-Nr.: 15 541
Promotions:
SS-Brigf.u.Gen.Maj.d.W-SS: ; SS-Oberf.: 4. Nov. 1944; SS-Staf.: ; SS-OStubaf.: ; SS-Stubaf.: ;
SS-HStuf.: ; SS-OStuf.: ; SS-UStuf.: .
Assignments:
Kdr. 1.SS-Panzer-Division "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler":
Postwar Captivity:
In Soviet POW camps May 1945 - 10. Oct. 1955.
Decorations & Awards:
Ritterkreuz des E.K.: 11. Jul. 1944 as SS-OStubaf. & Kdr. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 26/12.SS-Pz.Div.
"Hitlerjugend"/Heeresgruppe B/Western Front;
Deutsches Kreuz in Gold: 26. Dec. 1941;
1939 EK I: 8. Nov. 1939; 1939 EK II: 21. Sep. 1939;


Now am off to check out a crafters and painting site. Just telling you all so you know that I DO think of other things besides this postins subject.

Take Care.

Snowman, Kurt Myer worked for Andreas Brewery of Hagen. A couple of friends of mine who were in Germany at the time told me a similar story as the one you heard.

Hi Art and Sean:

I just looked in `Conduct Unbecoming' by Howard Margolian for any references to Meyer in the chapter about `Those Who Got Away' Page 183:

`...To support his family, Meyer went to work for Andreas Brewery in Hagen, West Germany. His job was to supervise the company's twenty-seven sales drivers...

...In another of the ironies associated with this story, one of Meyer's best customers was Canada's NATO mess at Soest, Germany...

...On the evening of 23 December 1961, his fifty-first birthday, Kurt Meyer's heart stopped for good.'

C. U. say on MOHNKE:

(years of attempts to try him had failed..Carman)

`...in the end Canadian authorities did little moreon the Mohnke case than to create a paper trail. Indeed, the Department of National Defence received the news of the new leads with a curious mixture of annoyance and resignation. While admitting that "we would be remiss if we did not notify the appropriate German Authorities of documents in our possession," the judge advocate clearly thought that this would be a waste of time, opineing that "there may exist many reasons
why Canada may not wish to be directly involved in the prosecution of alleged war criminals.' He did not elaborate what those reasons might be. Thus, while new evidence eventually was passed on to the Public Prosecutor's Office in Lubeck, it was done without enthusiasm, nor without any intention of following up on the progress of the German Investigation. The Mohnke case was once more on the back burner.'
-------------------
A witness could/would have fingered Mohnke. This witness `former SS Private Stangenberg' was alive (In Poland ?)still at the time the above (paragraph) happened so my take on things is that if things would have got pushed at that point, Mohkne might have been charged. The witness died in 1982 (says the book)

[Snowtractor]

Hi ART,
Duly noted, Cal told me the story a year or two ago so the eaxact details are foggy but the jist is correct. I'll ask him him to relate the where's and why fors next time I am there for coffee.
Sean

Hi Folks.

SEAN: Am sorry...I was waiting until Art replied to you before jumping back in here, but he may be a while so here I am. I'm very interested in hearing the stories you and Art have to exchange in here about the `Meyer audacity'!!!

PHOTO: Some wonderful amazing person sent me a group photo of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles. `C Company'...taken in England 1943?. The same photo which can be seen at the RWR Museum in Wpg. I KNOW my Uncles face must be in there and am looking and looking. I just want you-all to know that when I do ID his face, that I will share his `image' on this page, so you-all can see the man I've been so obsessed about...IF...you want that? This thread is so much about him in particular, but does not, in any way imply the other men aren't just as important. He's my Uncle. I need to high-light him is all, but I also want to know about the others if people have something to share.

QUESTION: Why am I thinking there was a B Company and I may be viewing the wrong photo if so???

Also, if you are all interested, I will share a scanned image of the Certificate regards the Edward Smith Lake named after my Uncle, when I receive it in a month or so (I hope!!!) You folks have been educating and informing me, at least I can show you `who' this is about Fair is fair.

Take care.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

Regarding photos or Company pictures. The Royal Winnipeg Rifles was made up of six companies, a headquarters company, a support company and four rifle companies (A, B, C, & D):

Headquarters Company
Support Company
"A" Company
"B" Company
"C" Company
"D" Company

You mentioned in an earlier post that your Uncle Eddie was with "B" Company.

Cheers

MARK: Thanks! I did not know about the 5 groups.
Now I do. Will try and verify my Uncle's, but think it's B.

PHOTO of the Winnipegs: many many of those faces are Aboriginal or Metis, but that makes sense considering the area (Red River, Ruperts Land, Manitoba) Our family roots ar English, Aboriginal, Scottish and French (toss in the Icelandic for just me ) Fur Trade kids

Take care. C

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

The attached image is a basic 'line diagram' of an Infantry Battalion in 1944, thought this would make it easier for you to understand what Companies are. Basic breakdown is a:

Battalion Headquarters (BHQ)

and six Companies:

Headquarters Company ("HQ" Company)
Support Company ("SP" Company)
Rifle Company ("A" Company)
Rifle Company ("B" Company)
Rifle Company ("C" Company)
Rifle Company ("D" Company)

Hope this helps.

Cheers

MARK: That list breakdown and the diagram makes it a lot easier for me to understand how things were structured. Thanks.

C Company was of the first to land on Juno Beach...right? Which would mean that my Uncle and his group amazingly made it thru all that beginning attack and found their way so far in land from the water. I keep wondering if my Uncle was one of the wounded men placed in the middle of the group when they were made to sit in the field just before the were open-fired on.

Someone thought it would be good for me to see `Saving Private Ryan' a while back... the opening part of the landing (Omaha right?) was so bad. I was told that many vets who landed June 6 were blown away by how `real' the movie showed the landing to be. It's also my impression that Juno Beach landing was not as insane and bad, but was still very bad.

How `realistic' WAS that opening to that movie?


Must go, and thanks you.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

Re: "C Company was of the first to land on Juno Beach...right?" - "B" and "D" Companies were the Assault Companies of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles on 6 Jun, landing at approx. 07:49 am. Both companies, landing under heavy enemy fire, "B" Company suffering heavy casualties.

"A" and "C" were the Follow-up Companies, landing at approx 09:00 am, along with half of Battalion Headquarters. The beaches were still under enemy fire when they landed.

Re: "It's also my impression that Juno Beach landing was not as insane and bad, but was still very bad" - Your right, Juno wasn't has bad has Omaha, but it was bad, most of the German strongpoints had not been knock-out by the preliminary bombardment and were still operational and firing when the Rifles landed.

Re: "How `realistic' WAS that opening to that movie?" - Couldn't tell you Carman, I've never seen the movie.

Hope this answers your questions. Have attached a diagram map of the Rifles landings and movements on 6 June 1944.

Cheers