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#31
05-02-12, 22:13
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Same problem in Holland. Too many immigrants, legal and illegal, getting into all sorts of crime. Worst thing the Dutch Authorities ever did was giving Dutch citizenship to children of immigrants born in the Netherlands. now we can't even kick them out when they commit crimes cause they are Dutch!
I think this pollitical correctness does not work at all. Some people are waking up though. Even in Government. There now is talk that immigrants who commit a crime can be sent back to where they came from. Cheers,
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Marc van Aalderen Daimler Dingo Mk1B 1941 Daimler Armoured Car Mk1 1943 Daimler Ferret Mk1/1 1959 Ford Universal Carrier No2 MkII* 1944 Ford GPW British Airborne 1944 Lightweight 10 Cwt Trailer SS Cars Ltd 1944 Anti-Tank Gun 6 Pdr 7 Cwt MkII 1942 Daf Trailer YAA602 1954 Daf Trailer AT16-24-1NL 1977 Daf 2100Turbo 1982 
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#32
05-02-12, 22:57
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Don`t get me wrong, we are all immigrants or descendants of, here in Canada. My personal beef regards placing foreign ideology, customs and beliefs upon MY culture ahead of that of natural citizens.
My grandfather emigrated as an orphan with nothing at the turn of the century as a Bernardo Home Child. He made a good life for all with a lot of hard work and determination and never asked anyone for a handout. The rest of my family came over from Ireland and Germany and did the same. Truth is, Canada and our system, like that of other Commonwealth nations, was based originally upon Christian heritage common to the UK. Take a look at our culture, our laws, our beliefs, morality, values, and our governmental structure. There is a place for immigration within our borders, albeit by our rules. We should make no apology for the way we behave within our nation. All that we ask is that newcomers do the same, abide by our rules and be part of our society. I find it suprising that so many want to come here and change everything, rather than embrace a new found freedom. Anyone remember the old saying, when in Rome, do as the Romans do? Afterall, I am sure my WASP heritage and ideology would not be endorsed in many places on this earth, hence a reluctance to venture there.
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV 1957 Triumph TRW 500cc RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers
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#33
05-02-12, 23:49
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Quote:
Tony's comment about the flag pulling heart strings is true, but after a period away from Australia seeing a red Qantas tail at some far off airport does the same for me even if I may be flying United or KLM at the time. To me the Union Flag represents suppression and subjugation. I think about the Scots at Culloden, the banning of their national cloth and the stealing of their lands and gifting them to English Aristocracy. So we start with the flag of England's St George flying on top of Scotland's flag of St Andrew to form the Queen Anne Flag. The Scottish independance movement is still alive and well. Then the English take the Queen Anne Flag and suppress and subjugate the Irish and similar to happenings in Scotland, the Irish lands are stolen and gifted to English aristocracy. During the "potatoe famine" the English landlords were exporting Irish grown produce for sale in England while the Irish were starving.* The Irish flag of St Patrick is then added underneath the Queen Anne Flag to form the Union Flag, and notice only the cross of St George of England remains untruncated, the other two crosses are reduced in half. The independence movement of Northern Ireland is alive and well. We then come to Australia, each night we can look skyward and see the Southern Cross as represented in our flag against a blue background of our sky, unfortunatly a quarter of our view is obliterated by the Union Flag flying under our unbounded sky. I remember the Irish political prisoners transported to Australia for nothing more that demonstrating for the independance of their homeland, never to see Ireland again. * Back the potatoe famine, our Government would do well to learn the lesson of the Irish as they allow the Chinese to buy up huge swathes of our prime agricultural land in an unregulated manner. Last edited by Dianaa; 06-02-12 at 06:25.
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#34
06-02-12, 00:49
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Keep it going
Hi Guys
I am impressed with the good debate going on here and the true feelings expressed by members from the commonwealth countries, we all have the same heritage and gripes. I was 7 years old when my family immigrated from Holland after WW2 for a better life. In those days as migrants we HAD TO PAY to come to Australia, As a new immigrant family in a country town in 1950 we were not welcomed by many who were still racist towards us at first. But they soon realized we were hard working and my parents made a good life for the family and I must say we have all turned out well, Australia has been good to us and we became Australian in all ways. I have never thought of myself as anything other than Australian and I am sure this goes for all other immigrants from Europe as well. Though I still fly the Dutch Flag on the 5th May to celebrate the liberation of out town by Canadian forces. TRUE BLUE AUSSIE.  Cheers Tony 
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Anthony (Tony) VAN RHODA. Strathalbyn. South Australia
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#35
06-02-12, 01:55
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Tsk! Tsk!
Quote:
You raised the issue using soldiers as examples. Don't worry though, soldiers whether serving or retired, are used to folks using us for their own gain. Good luck with your quest.
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RHC Why is it that when you have the $$, you don't have the time, and when you have the time you don't have the $$?
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#36
06-02-12, 06:40
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There is no gripe and I have nothing to gain and certainly not on the backs of soldiers. As I said in my earlier posts Aussie Soldiers fought under the Union Flag for more than half of the last century, if there was an Australian National Flag present it was always with the Union Flag atop the main flagstaff. Both my Grandfathers fought under the Union Flag, one a RAE sapper on the Somme and one a RAAF pilot officer with the RAF.
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#37
06-02-12, 12:59
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wake up austrailia
Dianna you are quite wrong on one point the lands in Scotland were not gifted to the English toffs at all rather the establishment in London took the sons of the old chiefs and turned them into English Gentlemen! In some cases they were much worse than the old enemy as regarding the clearances etc...however one plus point in all this is.that the colonys benefited greatly by the influx of good highland stock...best regards malcol
 m
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mally B
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#38
06-02-12, 13:22
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Hands Off The Flag
Those who hold a grudge against the Poms for past misdeeds should also remember that the people represented by that flag virtually stood alone when the NAZI juggernaut looked like realising the dreams of the insane criminal/s running the show.
I for one am not ashamed to be associated with them and have no problem with the Union Flag being in the corner of our own. It is not a symbol of domination, it merely represents our roots as the Southern cross represents where we are now. What may be or is yet to come is in the blue. At least that's the way I see it. The Canadians changed their flag because they had to to mollify the separatists. I see no good reason to change our own. I like it the way it is. As far as the aboriginals and their grievances are concerned, just one question to throw a different light on the subject. How would they have fared if the Japanese had overrun the country? We all know the answer to that one. It's about time they took responsibility for their own future instead of blaming the evil white man for all their problems. They will never get anywhere until they do. David
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Hell no! I'm not that old! Last edited by motto (RIP); 08-02-12 at 03:19.
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#39
06-02-12, 13:38
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Choose a Side
Quote:
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RHC Why is it that when you have the $$, you don't have the time, and when you have the time you don't have the $$?
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#40
06-02-12, 13:49
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Canadian..Eh..???
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Chris...When I was growing up in Halifax in the '50's and '60's the population was about 80% White..19% black and 1% Asian..if memory serves correct.. Every one was a Canadian..The Blacks were descended from British slaves released in Halifax by their British masters in the early 1800's..the Chinese ..Immigrants that came to Canada to build the railways in the mid 1800's.. And everyone got along and we all joined the military and were good Canadians.. Now..Canada is ????White ....????% Black ......????% Asian...and 50% Brown.... The problem is that the second and third generation immigrants still are dual citizens for their old country's that they have never been to ..but where their fathers or grand fathers came from and they still hold on to all the old traditions and laws and idea's from their old past lives.. 2nd and third generations..!! They will never be Canadians..Canadian by convenience only.. Sneak back to their old country's ..get arrested ..expect Canada to bail them out and fly them home to Canad the then sue the Canadian government using welfare lawyers and welfare checks to sue Canada for the mistreatment they suffered in their old countries... PC Bullshit.. I'm so cranked it wants to make me PUKE>>> Get rid of the lot..If they protest..and I see it here in Ottawa because the embassy are all here ..If they don't like what is going on in their own Country's ..they storm their embassy's in Ottawa ..then sue the Canadian government for not straightening out the shit that is going on by the dictators that are running their country's .. and it will continue.... 
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Alex Blair :remember :support :drunk:
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#41
06-02-12, 23:15
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Quote:
Last edited by Dianaa; 06-02-12 at 23:20.
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#42
07-02-12, 00:30
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OK enough about our different flags & flag history has been said so can we please leave the comments at that now
 
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Cheers Cliff Hutchings aka MrRoo S.I.R. "and on the 8th day he made trucks so that man, made on the 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night" MrRoo says "TRUCKS ROOLE" 
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#43
07-02-12, 01:36
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White Flag
Quote:
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RHC Why is it that when you have the $$, you don't have the time, and when you have the time you don't have the $$?
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#44
07-02-12, 01:48
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Flags
We too have our flag issues, for similar reasons. I withheld my "opinion" which is rare for me, but I must say I thought the thread was an interesting one. I particularly enjoyed Dianaa's posts.
I am surprised Breaker Morant never came up. Is it correct that the Aussie forces have only ever fought under their own commanders since that famous event?
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Bluebell Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991 Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6. Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6 Jeep Mb #135668 So many questions....
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#45
07-02-12, 14:11
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Australian troops served under British command many times and in many places after those executions were carried out. Diana mentioned an example where her grandfather served with the RAF although he was RAAF. Perhaps the best known example would be during the Western Front debacle. The tragedy of Fromelles has had an airing of late due to the discovery of the mass graves and it still hurts. If you listen to the song 'Last Man From Dunolly' you will know exactly what I'm referring to. Australian troops were in Singapore under British control when Percival surrendered. They were also under Monty in the Western Desert.
What did change was that the power that allowed the British authorities to execute Australian servicemen was removed. It never happened again. David
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Hell no! I'm not that old! Last edited by motto (RIP); 08-02-12 at 03:01. Reason: Clarification
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#46
07-02-12, 19:28
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David
Thanks for that, I knew that something had changed, but couldnt recall what it was.
Lynn.
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Bluebell Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991 Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6. Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6 Jeep Mb #135668 So many questions....
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#47
08-02-12, 02:46
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Last Man From Dunolly
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Hell no! I'm not that old!
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#48
08-02-12, 03:05
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Time for me to stir the proverbial pot again.....
Check out the State Flag of Hawaii. 'Discovered' by Capt James Cook in 1778, the islands were annexed by the USA in 1898 and became a US state in 1959. But they still retain the Union Jack in the upper corner of the state flag. Can't say I have a problem with that sort of preservation of historical links at all. (Duck.... incoming!)  Mike C
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#49
08-02-12, 03:38
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No,you're safe Mike, I think the discussion has run its course. The heat's gone out of it.
Dave
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Hell no! I'm not that old!
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#50
09-02-12, 05:42
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Hi Everyone
Just like Mr Clarke, I think the debate is interesting and yes I do fly the current National Flag with pride on Australia Day and at other events where it is appropriate. It is similar to the debate that we had on the merits or not of parading my ex-SADF vehicle with the apartheid era South African flag or the current South African flag (sorry i do not know their official titles), or WWII vehicles with the 48 star "Old Glory" or the current 50 star "Old Glory". I also think that this sort of spirited debate whilst evocative, can be a little more reasoned than some debates about "illegal boat people", when we know that most illegals arrive on big aeroplanes. Debate is always good as it helps us identify what's important and what's not really all that important in the light of day. Diana
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#51
09-02-12, 08:05
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Stimulating
With so many varied posts, it has surely turned into a 'mass debate'!
P.S: I'm proud of our flag. On days when it is flown at half mast, I still get a little foggy looking at that. If we all decided to change it to a piece of calico sack, I would then be proud of that too.
__________________
Ford CMP, 115" WB,1942 (Under Restoration...still) Medium sized, half fake, artillery piece project. (The 1/4 Pounder) Last edited by Private_collector; 09-02-12 at 20:50.
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#52
09-02-12, 17:02
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So does that mean the most prolific and provocative posts on this thread are posted by a Master Baiter????
  (Groan!)Mike C
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#54
09-02-12, 23:37
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Discussion, dialogue and diatribe.
Although this thread seems to have wandered around a bit, there is a common theme - that of national sovereignty and national identity.
I had hoped that we Aussies were mature enough and secure enough in our own identity to accept the Union flag in the corner of our own as nothing more than an historic link as the Hawaiians apparently do with theirs. As regards illegal immigrants, Diana, I think you are wrong. Although far more arrive by air than by sea, those that arrive by air, if apprehended, are treated as being illegals. Those that arrive by sea, however, are somehow magically transformed into being 'asylum seekers'. The term 'asylum seekers' is the only one used to describe them as if an edict had been issued to this effect. This is in spite of the fact that they have already passed through other countries where they were already given asylum or it was there if asked for. They obviously set out with Australia as their destination. Why should this be? Could it be the same reason they travel right across Europe to get to the U.K. because of the generous handouts and lavish assistance? Bingo, you've got it!! Yesterday, it was announced that the cost to the Australian Government to provide security and detention/processing for these people will be in the region of a billion dollars and this is only one aspect of the total cost involved. There seems to be an industry set up here to assist these people that has unlimited funding, despite the fact that our health and education systems are struggling to maintain standards. Australia is a large country (a huge percentage of which is inhospitable) but we only have a small population of twenty-two million that could easily be swamped or overwhelmed and already the impact is being felt. We have long been an island of tranquility in an increasingly chaotic world but this is changing . The recent spate of drive-by shootings in Melbourne and Sydney are openly acknowledged as being attributable to a particular ethnic group described in the media by a high-ranking Victorian Police officer as being 'of recent import'. Some come here seeking shelter from the storm. Some come here as part of it. If only we could sort them out. David.
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Hell no! I'm not that old! Last edited by motto (RIP); 09-02-12 at 23:48.
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#55
10-02-12, 00:55
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Discussion, dialogue and diatribe.
well said David! Even though I too am a recent import from New Zealand (13yrs) I became an Australian Citizen along with my wife in 1994 and concider Australia home now. I have no problem with folk who do it the legal way but like you think many of the asylum seekers are not all that genuine. I did the painting below based on the Cat Stevens song "Longer Boats" but my take on it is an Asylum Seeker boat heading our way. Figures and flag are done in white so that no one particular ethnic group is picked out.
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Cheers Cliff Hutchings aka MrRoo S.I.R. "and on the 8th day he made trucks so that man, made on the 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night" MrRoo says "TRUCKS ROOLE"
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#56
10-02-12, 08:15
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Motto - Re: Discussion, dialogue and diatribe.
here, here!
It presents as if any form of political backbone is dead! Resting peacefully alongside common sense. I have the same frustrations as many, with watching this ongoing 'train wreck' of illegal immigration becoming 'asylum', knowing it's gonna happen & tough decisions will NOT be made for fear of political correctness breaches or upsetting some sections of our society. Society, what a joke! Australia is fast becoming just another group of people living in proximity, definately NOT a society. Who was it that said: Politicians should be changed as frequently as nappies.........and for exactly the same reason?
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Ford CMP, 115" WB,1942 (Under Restoration...still) Medium sized, half fake, artillery piece project. (The 1/4 Pounder)
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#57
10-02-12, 09:34
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Quote:
 Or is the UN most of the problem?
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Cheers Cliff Hutchings aka MrRoo S.I.R. "and on the 8th day he made trucks so that man, made on the 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night" MrRoo says "TRUCKS ROOLE"
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#58
10-02-12, 13:46
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Illegals are illegals are illegals whether they flew here or floated here. Most of the ones coming by boat, don't come from a Visa free country and they wouldn't have received a Visa for any other reason.
While the detention centres in WA and NT are full of boat people, many of the ones in Villawood are the illegal overstayers and boat people who failed to gain asylum. I don't know why we cant do exactly the same as the Yanks do and bus them back immediately, although then they wouldn't get off the plane, like they didn't get off the Oceanic Viking or what ever was the Customs ship that took them to Indonesia. As for Australian Citizenship for new immigrants, it should be the one strike and your out rule. Go to prison for a crime and you lose you're adult acquired citizenship and when parole or release comes around, it's off in a big plane to from whence you came, no questions, no appeal even if you've got family here. I think that all the treaties that were signed at the end of WWII with devastation in Europe are the cause of a lot of todays problems.
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#59
10-02-12, 15:57
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Quote:
I remember being at a Wallabies Vs Springboks Rugby match a few years back and seeing the surprised/confused looks of each teams supporters who were decked out in green and gold and the Southern Cross, or gold and green and the Southern Cross.  The depiction, as a celestial formation, is used on around a dozen National, State or Regional official emblems from various countries around the Southern Hemisphere. This is what Wikipedia has to say: "Beginning in the colonial age, the constellation Crux became used as a national symbol by several southern nations. The brightest stars of Crux appear on the flags of Australia, Brazil, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea and Samoa. They also appear on the flags of the Australian state of Victoria, the Australian Capital Territory, the Northern Territory, as well as the flag of Magallanes Region of Chile, the flag of Londrina (Brazil) and several Argentine provincial flags and emblems (for example,, Tierra del Fuego and Santa Cruz). The Argentine Air Force acrobatic display team is called Cruz del Sur, the Spanish for "Southern Cross". The Southern Cross was written into the lyrics of "Advance Australia Fair" in 1901: "Beneath our radiant Southern Cross", and also included in the lyrics of the Brazilian National Anthem (1909): "A imagem do Cruzeiro resplandece" ("the image of the Cross shines"). The five stars are also in the logo of the Brazilian football team Cruzeiro Esporte Clube and the Brazilian coat of arms, and even featured as the name of the currency (the cruzeiro from 1942 to 1986 and again from 1990 to 1994. The constellation is displayed in all coins of the current series of the Brazilian real." So our claim to it as solely Australian is utterly ridiculous. I wonder if any nations in the Northern Hemisphere would claim sovereignty as an emblem over say the Pole Star? The closest we would come to our own unique design using the Southern Cross is the Eureka Flag, which also represents the sentiments expressed here by many. But what does really bug me is that you can't find Australian MADE flags anymore, they're all cheap imports from Asia that invariably have errors of some sort. It doesn't matter if you buy a current Official flag, a Boxing Kangaroo or even an Aboriginal Rising Sun, they all seem to be from overseas. Even going to your local Federal Member and asking for an Official Flag (which they are obliged to provide, did you know?), will result in you getting a cheap screen-printed nylon piece of rubbish that even has a tag saying "Made In C****"!
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#60
10-02-12, 16:15
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Quote:
There was a story in one of the early editions of "Wartime" magazine from the AWM dealing with him. One of the photos accompanying the article showed his coffin before the burial (this was 1902), and it was draped with the Australian Flag. It struck me as surprising that the caption noted that this was "the 4th version of the flag"! Get that? The flag that was first flown in Sep 1901 was up to it's 4th evolution by 1902!! Changes included the positioning of the stars, the length of the points of the stars, and the number of points of each star. It was not until 1908 that our current flag was finalised!
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