RAAF Derrick Trucks

[Allan Currey]

Here's some more to add. As you can see in the documentation, it is definitely called a derrick truck. Issued to engineers and the like, it would have been used, among other things, to load/unload the semi trailers that bridging platoons used to carry pontoons, bailey bridge sections, etc.
As for slewing control, there are 2 attachment points just behind the the tip of the boom. I think that simple ropes were tied here and used to pull the crane around.

Cheers,
Allan

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Allan Currey

As you can see in the documentation, it is definitely called a derrick truck.

Also on the vehicle data plate. The fact is these are the ONLY CMP derricks produced - the so called Derrick in pic 3 is not, repeat NOT, a derrick. The defining feature of a derrick is a pivoting boom which rotates around a vertical axis.

[Mike Cecil]

Sorry, Tony, but to a Canadian, the truck in Pic 3 is officially defined as a 'Lorry, 3 ton, Derrick' or 'Lorry, 3 ton, 4x4-134"wb Derrick' and they were only built (in Canada) on Ford chassis.

There were various body configurations: 3A3 on Cab 12; 3A5, 4H2, 4H4, 4H6 on Cab 13. The Canadian DND vehicle model suffix was DRCK-1 through to 5, depending on fittings, winch type, etc, (where DRCK stands for 'Derrick').

The DND description of the vehicle and its use also uses the term 'derrick' several times.

So I suppose we are seeing yet another difference of word definition and usage between English speaking nations. OK, OK .... so it seems the Canadians don't know the difference between a 'Lorry' and a 'Truck'....

Mike C

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Sorry, Tony, but to a Canadian, the truck in Pic 3 is officially defined as a 'Lorry, 3 ton, Derrick' or 'Lorry, 3 ton, 4x4-134"wb Derrick' and they were only built (in Canada) on Ford chassis.

Hi Mike,
The Lorry, Derrick configuration in Pic 3 that you relate to was also built in Canada on the Chev chassis. Steve Stone had one, but I thought it was on a C30S chassis, same wheelbase as a '60S, but his was a Cab 12. Looks much the same as a 3 tonner.

You can talk to him about it in July !

regards, Richard

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Richard,

My comment on the Ford build was based on the DND 'body data book', the updated version issued in 1945, so given the cessation of CMP production soon after, I assumed it was correct (see... the dangers of assuming anything!!!)

I'll look forward to chatting with him about it, in person, in July.

All the best from a mild winter in WA state....

Mike C

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

My comment on the Ford build was based on the DND 'body data book', the updated version issued in 1945, so given the cessation of CMP production soon after, I assumed it was correct (see... the dangers of assuming anything!!!)

I'll look forward to chatting with him about it, in person, in July.

All the best from a mild winter in WA state....

Hi Mike,
In the reprint of the 1944 Canadian Vehicle Data Book, only the Cab 13 F60S is shown. Probably difficult to find a full definitive listing of all variations in the build period of CMP's.
It is mild here ........ and wet. You have been lucky not to get that freezing weather they have further East.

We will warm the beer up for you in July

cheers Richard

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Steve Stone had one, but I thought it was on a C30S chassis, same wheelbase as a '60S, but his was a Cab 12.

That concurs with the photo in David's 2008 post, which shows a Cab 12 Derrick on 16" wheels and what look to me like Chev diffs. I note also this image is titled "8441 Derrick Lorry" - does 8441 identify a C30S?

[Mike Cecil]

Hey, Jared ..... and all you wanted to know about was Derrick trucks.... see how ... 'educational' MLU can be?

Wow! I should visit here more often.....

Mike C

[Richard Farrant]

A postscript .........

Seen here, a pre-WW2 Crossley IGL8 Derrick lorry, one of the various types of bridging vehicles. Pre-dates CMP's.

[Lang]

Richard,

That truck looks like something used for vertical lifting (no boom support other than brackets on the back of the truck and no horizontal strength). As you say, for bridge piles, maybe signals for putting poles in?

Lang

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Sorry, Tony, but to a Canadian, the truck in Pic 3 is officially defined as a 'Lorry, 3 ton, Derrick' or 'Lorry, 3 ton, 4x4-134"wb Derrick' and they were only built (in Canada) on Ford chassis.

There were various body configurations: 3A3 on Cab 12; 3A5, 4H2, 4H4, 4H6 on Cab 13. The Canadian DND vehicle model suffix was DRCK-1 through to 5, depending on fittings, winch type, etc, (where DRCK stands for 'Derrick').

Agree, see the thread 3 Ton Derrick.

But: one manual lists a "3-Ton 4x4 Engineers' Lorry with Body Type Winch". In the listed thread no definite conclusion was drawn whether the Derrick and Engineers Lorry were the same type of truck or not.

H.

[Mike Cecil]

Interesting......

The '3 ton Engineers Lorry' is actually defined as the 'Lorry 3 ton 4x4-134"wb Winch' in the DND body book, body type codes 3A2, 3A4, 4H1, 4H3 and 4H5. These are an 'all steel 10 foot special engineers body having full length wheelwell seats along each side...'

Comparing the descriptions of the body types eg 3A4 (winch) and 3A5 (derrick), it appears the same base body is used for both the Winch and Derrick trucks, with the difference being the fittings etc required for mounting and stowing the derrick poles.

I notice that the Gregg Vehicle Data book (a repro of the March 1944 DND list) lists only the Derrick, noting that it has the capacity to be used as a recovery winch (without the derrick legs in place). Maybe by then the 'Lorry, Winch' was dropped in favour of producing one truck, ie the Derrick, which could do winching AND lifting, ie a more versatile truck? In any event, the body data book lists two sets of body identification numbers, so the Winch and Derrick trucks were clearly differentiated at some time.

Mike C

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Sorry, Tony, but to a Canadian, the truck in Pic 3 is officially defined as a 'Lorry, 3 ton, Derrick' .....The DND description of the vehicle and its use also uses the term 'derrick' several times.

So I suppose we are seeing yet another difference of word definition and usage between English speaking nations.

Yes I realize that's the official designation Mike, I was merely pointing out that it's a misnomer. My purpose in doing so was to identify the TRUE source of confusion which invariably sees the Australian nomenclature called into question, as seen again throughout this thread. However my use of upper/lower case was perhaps too subtle, so I shall restate more clearly: The vehicle in pic 3 is definitely a Derrick, but is definitely not a derrick!

On the question of national word usage - in this case we're dealing with a word chosen solely by a WO committee, and thus enforced in relation to this particular vehicle. Therefore we can't assume common usage, as we might if we encountered the word in general literature. I'd be interested to hear from Canadians on this question, but I'd be surprised if they use the word "derrick" interchangeably with "crane", any more than we do in Australia. Certainly the word itself is clearly defined in English dictionaries, and in no way does it apply to the simple crane found on the Lorry, 3 ton, Derrick:

"a kind of crane with a movable pivoted arm for moving heavy weights, especially on a ship."

"a boom for lifting cargo, pivoted at its inner end to a ship's mast or kingpost, and raised and supported at its outer end by topping lifts."

"A machine for hoisting and moving heavy objects, consisting of a movable boom equipped with cables and pulleys and connected to the base of an upright stationary beam."

"lifts and moves heavy objects; lifting tackle is suspended from a pivoted boom that rotates around a vertical axis."

"a jib crane having a boom hinged near the base of the mast so as to rotate about the mast, for moving a load toward or away from the mast by raising or lowering the boom."


Thus we find that a derrick is defined by a boom which both elevates AND rotates - neither of which the Lorry, 3 ton, Derrick can do! However I'm led to revise my earlier assertion that the Trucks, Derrick (AUST) was the only CMP derrick produced - there was in fact one other variant fitting this definition, in a much more famous configuration featuring not one but TWO derricks!

Something else I learned about the derrick: "The device was named for its resemblance to a type of gallows from which a hangman's noose hangs. The derrick type of gallows in turn got its name from Thomas Derrick, an English executioner from the Elizabethan era." Fascinating!

[Mike Cecil]

Yep, missed the subtlety of the first post ..... but not this time round!

Mike C

[Richard Farrant]

In the past I worked with cranes a lot, on repairs and testing, one of the actions on the old rope controlled jibs (no hydraulics) was Derrick In and Derrick Out, this was dropping or raising the jib. My understanding of it, and the fact some are on a turntable is non-consequential. The CMP Derrick lorry does just that, it raises and lowers the jib/derrick.



Also ...just to throw another spanner in the works, the old oil wells with the pylon like structure, was called a derrick and all it did was to hoist up and down within the structure.

[Lang]

Richard,

I think we are getting in to navel gazing on this nomenclature. I reckon the bottom line is, the Brits named things and wrote their manuals with their language usage along with such weird (to the rest of the world) "accumulators, stranglers and dynamos" for batteries, chokes and generators. Just like we think an accumulator is a rich man and you thought back in the 40's battery was a criminal offence while we thought the same for stranglers.

A number of Australian versions of military vehicle manuals have a translation page with Australian, British and American columns for the names of various parts of a vehicle. It runs into dozens of items with Australian general usage being split halfway between British and American terms.

The only time you will hear Derrick here is in reference to boats, historic railway station cranes and sometimes high rise tower cranes are formally referred to correctly as derrick cranes.

I think "Derrick in and Derrick out" for raising and lowering a boom - sorry jib -is not a sustainable description for current use. Nearly all cranes now have extensions and unless we use "Erect and Flacid" for booms extended and retracted the terms "In and Out" must be sensibly used for the extension function and "Raising and Lowering" the boom used in their proper sense also.

The main thing is the people using the gear know what it means and even if the manuals used a Russian term for the equipment everyone would know what it was very quickly from common usage. How many M1's are there in the American system referring to equipment ranging from rifles, signal equipment, food processors to trucks. Nobody says "Private, wash the M1 Rotary potato peeler, 4 horsepower, portable" the cook will know from usage what the sergeant meant when he says "Private, wash the M1".

I will see you all at the Pedantics Anonymous meeting at 4.33 and 23 seconds at the town hall.

Lang